Greatest Warrior of All Time


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8,578 thoughts on “Greatest Warrior of All Time

  1. Found this on a renowned information sharing website:

    AN INTERPOLATIONS FROM BORI

    Adi Parv :
    1. A/C to BORI, the first sanskrit verse in each parv of mahabharat about glory of Nara-Narayan which has overglorified Arjuna is an interpolation. Only Adi Parv has mentioned this sanskrit verse thats too numbering it as verse number ‘Zero’ which itself proves that sanskrit verse is added to epic in order to overglorify Arjuna. In future, Pandava supporters may add more stuff by numbering it as verse number ‘Minus 1, 2, 3 …’. List goes on. So be aware from such propogandas
    2. A/C to BORI, the statement of Dhritrashtra in section-2 of where he admits about Arjuna and Bhima defeating all kings including Salya and Karna is an interpolation. BORI says It was Karna who overpowered Arjuna at Draupadi swayamvar
    3. A/C to BORI, the statement of Dhritrashtra in section-2 where he admits about disrobing of Draupadi at dice is an interpolation
    4. A/C to BORI, the statement of Dhritrashtra in section-2 where he admits about Arjuna defeating Kalakeyas and paulomas is an interpolation
    5. A/C to BORI, the passage of Adi Parv where Duryodhana after his birth cries as ass and other ass, vulutures too cries after listening his crying is an interpolation. So Duryodhana was indeed divine by birth
    6. A/C to BORI, entire section-135 where vaisampayana narrated about Drona being neutral unbiased preceptor giving same knowledge to all disciples, Arjuna excelling all disciples of Drona in skill and strength, Drona giving narrow mouthed vessel to Arjuna, Ashwatthama’s failure to fill wide mouthed vessel and Arjuna filling narrow mouthed vessel using Varunastra is an interpolation.
    7. A/C to BORI, the defeat of Kauravas in ‘Guru-Dakshina’ war is an interpolation. So all 105 kuru princes conquered Panchal
    8. A/C to BORI, Arjuna conquering kingdoms using ordinary bow that even Pandu couldn’t conquere and Bhima conquering east on single car is an interpolation
    9. A/C to BORI, the statement of Vaisampayana where he has mentioned the name of Karna during the episode of ‘Lakshagrah Burning’ is an interpolation.
    10. A/C to BORI, the statement of vaisampayana where he has mentioned Karna, Duryodhana, Shakuni and Dussasan consulting each other in order to send pandavas at varnavrat is an interpolation. It proves that Karna didn’t know about lakshagrah let alone his role as ‘Silent observer’ in it
    10. A/C to BORI, Supported by 4 pandavas yudhistira himself plotted to burn innocent woman along with five kids in order to fake their death (varnavrat conspiracy)
    11. A/C to BORI, the attempt of Karna in Draupadi swayamvar is an interpolation. BORI has removed all verses regarding success (Northern recension) and failure (southern recension) of Karna. According to KMG, there was only one attempt of Karna where Draupadi had rejected him on the ground of cast but according to BORI, there was no attempt of Suta’s son Karna in Draupadi swayamvar. He didn’t participate in it
    12. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrated about Kshtriyas calling Arjuna to be worthy opponent of Karna is an interpolations. BORI says Parshuram, Drona and Kripa were worthy opponents of Karna in archery and Arjuna was inferior or simply worthy opponent of duryodhana in archery
    13. A/C to BORI, the statement of Yudhistira in section-199 where he has presented an examples of ‘Polyandry ‘ are an interpolations. According to BORI, Draupadi was the only woman in our history who married multiple men
    14. A/C to BORI, the fictional story in section-226 where vaisampayana has mentioned Lord Bramha commanding Lord Agni to consume forest is an interpolation. BORI says Lord Bramha had no relation with Khandav burning and it was done by Arjuna only for gratification of Agni

    Sabha parv :
    15. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates Public being happy under rulership of Yudhistira, Indraprast being free from any crime and entire description of kingdom of yudhistir is an interpolation. So Yudhistira was never ideal king like Duryodhana
    16. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana in Sabha Parv narrated about Yudhistira without any arrorgance and anger giving everyone his due and only hearing blessed be dharma praise is an interpolation. BORI says yudhistira was not ideal king
    17. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates about Ulupi granting boon to Arjuna for invincibility in the water is an interpolation
    18. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates about Arjuna embracing Chitragandha and newborn child vabruvahan with affection and taking permission of king before abandoing chitragandha is an interpolation.
    19. A/C to BORI, the confession of Duryodhana in section-55 about Arjuna being the soul of Krishna and Krishna being the soul of Arjuna and both can sacrifice their lives for each other is an interpolation.
    20. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana in section-78 of Sabha Parv narrated about ladies of dhritrashtra’s house blaming kauravas for defeating pandava at dice and beholding plight of pandava crying by covering their faces with their hands is an interpolation. BORI says all ladies were happy beholding plight of pandavas
    21. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana in section-80 of Sabha Parv narrated about Hastinapur public blaming Kauravas and crying for pandava by saying that ‘they are masterless’ is an interpolation. BORI says Hastinapur public only loved Duryodhana, not Pandavas

    Vana parv :
    22. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates about Karna insulting Bhishma before Digvijay by calling him ‘Wretch’ is an interpolation. So only Bhishma insulted Karna in order to damp his energy
    23. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates about Karna taking asuric vow for not saying ‘No’ to anyone untill the slaughter of Arjuna is an interpolation. BORI says he vowed to kill Arjuna but not for saying ‘No’ to anying.
    24. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates about conspiracy of Duryodhana for sending Rishi Durvasa to Pandavas is in interpolation.
    25. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates about Arjuna dragging Lord shiva with the end of the bow is an interpolation
    26. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates about Lord shiva saying that he will give his favourite weapon to arjuna before Arjuna begging for weapon is an interpolation. BORI says Arjuna begged for weapon
    27. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates about Lord Shiva embracing Arjuna is an interpolation
    28. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates about Arjuna remembering his mothers and brothers, remembering play of dice, meeting apsara urvasi and rejecting apsara urvasi while living in heaven is an interpolation. BORI says, Arjuna couldn’t impressed any girl in his life and he became ‘Brihunalla’ as per the instructions of yudhistira
    29. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrates about Karna advising Duryodhana to defeat Pandavas at dice after their return is an interpolation
    30. A/C to BORI, the statement of vaisampayana in Vana Parva where he has narrated about Lord Shiva telling glory of Nara-narayana before Jaydratha is an interpolation
    31. A/C to BORI,Yuddhisthira praising strength of pandavas and prasing Arjuna along with 70% questions by yaksha interpolation in yaksha chapter

    Virata Parv :
    32. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana in section-33 and section-34 narrated about Bhima sparing Susharma on the request of Yudhistira is an interpolation
    33. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrated about Arjuna piercing the ear of karna and troops supporting karna breaking down is an interpolation.
    34. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrated about Uttar telling Arjuna being very much mangled with arrows of kuru warriors is an interpolation. BORI says Arjuna used sammohan astra for fleeing not to protect uttar
    35. A/C to BORI, the statement in section-66 where vaisampayana narrated about Arjuna returning after vanquishing kurus, Prince uttar praising Arjuna, Monkey (Lord Hanuman) abandoning flagstaff of Arjuna is an interpolation. BORI says entire section is an interpolation. So it’s another proof for Lord Hanuman spotting in Virata war

    Bhishma Parv :
    36. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya narrated about the single combat between Bhishma and sweta is an interpolation. BORI says sweta’s character is an interpolation

    Drona Parv :
    37. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 12th narrated about Bhagdatta’s elephant feeling great pain, crying is agony after it’s armour cut off by Arjuna is an interpolation
    38. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 13th day narrated about Krishna telling arjuna regarding karna laughing at the death of abhimanyu is an interpolation.
    39. A/C to BORI, the statement where sanjaya on 14th day narrated about Satyaki breaking 100 bows of Drona is an interpolation
    40. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 14th day narrated about Arjuna making lake having lotus of finest species, swarn, ducks and Rishi Narada himself appearing to witness beauty of lake is an interpolation. BORI says the lake created by Arjuna on 14th day was as ordinary as Arjuna himself
    41. A/C to BORI, the narration where Sanjaya on 14th day narrated about Arjuna poorly justifying his unfair act (About cutting arm from behind violating rules of war) before king Bhurishrava is an interpolation. BORI says Arjuna had no justification so he remained silient like criminal when all praised King Bhurishrava
    42. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 14th day narrated about Bhima lamenting after killing Vikarna is an interpolation. BORI says Bhima was happy after slaughter of vikarna
    43. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 14th day narrated about Bhima causing Karna to turn back after the death of chitra, Chitrayudha and vikarna is an interpolation
    44. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 14th day narrated about Bhima causing Karna to lose his sense is an interpolation.
    45. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 14th day narrated about bhima (A human who was finding shelter under the deadbody of an elephant in order to save his life from arrows of Karna) with Lord Hanuman (A divine monkey who had lifted mountain to save lakshmana) is an interpolation. BORI says there was no comparison statement by Sanjaya
    46. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 14th day narrated about Armed Karna Causing unarmed Bhima to lose his sense is an interpolation. BORI says karna was fair warrior who didn’t attack unarmed Bhima for offence
    47. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 14th day narrated about Bhima desirous of attacking Karna with his fists and because of arjuna’s vow, unarmed Bhima standing on ground sparing armed chariot rider karna is an interpolation. BORI says only karna spared Bhima
    48. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya narrated about Bhima saying that he repeatedly vanquish Karna, inviting karna for wrestling and armed karna rejecting application/challenge of unarmed Bhima is an interpolation
    49. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 14th day narrated about Arjuna killing 7 akshahoni army in single day is an interpolation. BORI says Arjuna couldn’t kill single foot soldier in 18th days and KMG too confirmed it
    50. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 15th day narrated about Bhima breaking one wheel of karna’s chariot is an interpolation
    51. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 15th day narrated about Satyaki alone resisting Karna, Duryodhana and Kripacharya on 15th day is an interpolation
    52. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 15th day narrated about Satyaki repeatedly making ashwatthama careless and depriving Karna, Vrishasen, Kripa, duryodhan from their chariots and all of them flying away on all sides is an interpolation
    53. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 15th day narrated about Sages including Vishwamitra, Jamdagni and others blaming Drona for using celestical weapons against army is an interpolation
    54. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 15th narrated about Ashwatthama defeating Bhima after long tough fight is an interpolation. BORI says Bhima was defeated very easily without giving any tough fight
    55. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 15th day narrated about vow of Arjuna for not using Gandiva against Bramhana and Narayanastra is an interpolation. BORI says there was no vow of Arjuna rather he was incapable to withstand Narayanastra

    Karna Parv :
    56. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 16th day narrated about Yudhistira sparing Prince Duryodhana is an interpolation
    57. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya narrated about Duryodhana, Dussasana, Shakuni and entire army attacking alone bhima and bhima causing all of them to turn back is an interpolation.
    58. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-50 narrated about Bhima making Karna to lose his sense, Karna assailing Bhima after regaining sense, defeating and compelling Bhima to retreat after long tough fight is an interpolation. BORI says Karna defeated Bhima in 1 second using just 1 arrow and Bhim couldn’t bear 1 arrow of karn
    59. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya narrated about Yudhistira making Karna unconsious, Karna regaining his sense and shooking Vijaya bow to defeat Yudhistira is an interpolation.
    60. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya narrated about Bhima challenging Karna and Duryodhana to save dussasan, remembering disrobing of draupadi and Yudhamanyu killing Karna’s brother chitrasen in front of him is an interpolation
    61. A/C to BORI, the statement of Sanjaya in Karna Parva where he has narrated about Arjuna challenging Kauravas to save Vrishasen and saying to karna that he will kill vrishasen in front of him is an interpolation. BORI says arjuna supported by group of warriors killed vrishasen and when karna reached to that spot, Arjuna vanished from there means fled. KMG too support it
    62. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya narrated about Arjuna telling Krishna that he wants to see yudhistira safe before the section where karna repeatedly eye Arjuna for single combat is an interpolation. BORI says Arjuna fled away beholding angry Karna
    63. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-62 narrated about the Sahdeva defeating Duryodhana using celestical weapon is an interpolation
    64. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-63 of Karna Parva narrated about Bhima overpowering Duryodhana is an interpolation

    KARNA v/s ARJUNA – Final Encounter
    65. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-89 narrated about Rishi, Kshtriyas, Siddhas supporting Arjuna and Rakshas, Pisachas, Dogs, Carnivorous animals supporting Karna is an interpolation
    66. A/C to BORI, statement where Sanjaya in section-89 narrated about Lord Bramha saying that Arjuna follows truth and morality is an interpolation
    67. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-89 narrated about Lord Bramha praising Arjuna for burning of khandava forest is an interpolation. BORI says Bramha has nothing to do with khandav burning
    68. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-89 narrated about Lord Bramha saying that no one is equal to Nara-narayan, all rishi-gods walk behind them, universe exist because of power of Nara-narayan is an interpolation
    69. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-90 narrated about Lord Bramha’s confession for Karna being on the side of demons is an interpolation. BORI says Karna was supporter of right people
    70. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-90 of Karna Parva narrated about Lord Bramha saying that victory of Arjuna will accompalish the purpose of gods is an interpolation
    71. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-89 narrated about Karna using Bhargavastra second time because he was unable to digest power of Vajrastra shot by Arjuna is an interpolation. BORI says, earlier in section-55 Arjuna fled from Bhargavastra still Karna didn’t use it again
    72. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-89 narrated about Arjuna piercing Karna and Salya all over their bodies after replacing broken string of Gandiva is an interpolation.
    73. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-89 narrated about Arjuna slaying many foremost of all warriors of Duryodhana army using celestical weapons in front of Karna is an interpolation
    74. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-89 narrated about army of Duryodhana crying before Karna to save them as Arjuna was destroying them is an interpolation
    75. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-90 narrated about Karna being unable to prevail over Arjuna hence set his heart to shoot Nagastra is an interpolation. BORI says Karna had shot Nagastra after overpowering Arjuna
    76. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-90 narrated about Arjuna cutting Nagastra of Karna is an interpolation. BORI says Arjuna failed to counter Nagastra
    77. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-90 narrated about Krishna lifting the wheel of Arjuna’s chariot is an interpolation. BORI says Karna had pierced chariot rider Krishna in front of Arjuna and KMG too confirm it
    78. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-90 narrated a large part of battle which describe Arjuna piercing Karna all over the body, Karna being stupified, Vijaya bow falling from graps of Karna, Arjuna thinking not to attack half unconsious Karna remembering rules of war, Krishna criticizing Arjuna for not attacking Karna and following order of Krishna, Arjuna again piercing half unconsious Karna and Salya all over their bodies is an interpolation. KMG says this was the only feat when Arjuna overpowered Karna. BORI says Arjuna never overpowered Karna in final combat but Only Karna gained upper hand over Arjuna.
    79. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-90 narrated about Kala informing Karna about his death is an interpolation. BORI says unfair death was never destiny of Karna
    80. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-90 narrated about the wheel of Karna’s chariot sinking into ground when Arjuna was about to shoot mighty arrow of iron is an interpolation. BORI says Karna started to pierce body parts of Krishna and Arjuna and as he did so, wheel of chariot sunk into the ground. So BORI says CURSE SAVED ARJUNA
    81. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-90 narrated about Karna praising Arjuna being followers of rules of war is an interpolation. BORI says Karna knew very well Arjuna being crook warrior
    82. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-90 narrated about Krishna criticizing Karna for poisoning of Bhima, Burning of lakshagrah, Refusing to return Indraprast, Death of abhimanyu is an interpolation.
    83. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-91 narrated about Krishna criticizing Karna for saying Pandavas are dead and Draupadi should choose another husband is an interpolation
    84. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-91 narrated about Krishna saying to Karna that sons of pandu are protected by virtue and Karna hanging down his head in shame is an interpolation. BORI says Karna never hung down head in shame but Pandava headed by Krishna hung down their heads in shame beholding worship of Duryodhana by gods
    85. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya in section-91 and section-95 narrated about Pandava warriors and Kaurava warriors praising Arjuna for killing Karna in unfair way is an interpolation. BORI says no one praised him for this act.
    86. A/C to BORI, the entire section-95 where Sanjaya narrated about Sons of Dhritrashtra (kaurava) fleeing after death of Karna due to fear of Bhima and arjuna is an interpolation

    Salya Parv :
    87. A/C to BORI, the statement where Sanjaya on 18th day narrated about Bhima slaying horses of Kritvarma and Kritvarma fleeing from Bhima is an interpolation

    Ashramvasika Parv :
    88. A/C to BORI, the statement where Ved vyass in section-31 narrated about the death of Abhimanyu fighting with 6 mighty car-warriors is an interpolation. BORI says son of dussasan slew him in the fair single combat and KMG too confirmed it

    Mausala Parv :
    89. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrated about Vasudeva (father of Krishna) admitting that Krishna being able to falsify the curse of Devi Gandhari is an interpolation. BORI says Krishna was unable to falsify it
    90. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana narrated about Krishna’s wives having curse for getting kidnap by dwarka robbers is an interpolation. KMG and BORI doesn’t mentioned any curse. Only some interpolated southern recension based versions contains this extra story.

    Swargarohanika Parv :
    91. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana in section-4 narrated about Gods worshipping Krishna and Arjuna and both receiving Yudhistira at the gate of heaven is an interpolation. BORI says Arjuna fell in the hell hence gods didn’t worship him
    92. A/C to BORI, the statement where vaisampayana in section-4 mentions Bhima achieving highest success in heaven is an interpolation

    Regards,

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    1. Hi, Sanjay, Yuvasamrat here. I visited the blog the day we had met on quora. However I took this much time in studying the contents of this blog.

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  2. Well well well…. I never thought that this blog will reopen ever, hence i had stopped checking it from month, & today i mistakenly opened it & to my surprise i saw this blog again active….. Thanks anyway Dhruv… Although u also are worthy of Criticism for closing down this blog abruptly, which we were part of from so many years…..

    And hello friends, how r u all…..Good to see u all & speacially Anand Shankar who is back as well after so long…

    I would first read the comments which i missed from February, after that i will respond….

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  3. Well well well…. I never thought that this blog will reopen ever, hence i had stopped checking it from month, & today i mistakenly opened it & to my surprise i saw this blog again active….. Thanks anyway Dhruv… Although u also are worthy of Criticism for closing down this blog abruptly, which we were part of from so many years…..

    And hello friends, how r u all…..Good to see u all & speacially Anand Shankar who is back as well after so long…

    I would first read the comments which i missed from February, after that i will respond….

    I would also tell u all the funny story of Niraj’s Ghugguprasaad behaviour which he showed at the “True Meaning of Gar” blog..

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  4. Well well well…. I never thought that this blog will reopen ever, hence i had stopped checking it from month, & today i mistakenly opened it & to my surprise i saw this blog again active….. Thanks anyway Dhruv… Although u also are worthy of Criticism for closing down this blog abruptly, which we were part of from so many years…..

    And hello friends, how r u all…..Good to see u all & speacially Anand Shankar who is back as well after so long…

    I would first read the comments which i missed from February, after that i will respond….

    I would also tell u all the funny story of Niraj’s Ghugguprasaad behaviour which he showed at the “True Meaning of Gar” blog…..

    Like

  5. But was jealousy Karna specific. “Ekalavya, ever devoted to truth and desirous also of keeping his promise, with a cheerful face and an unafflicted heart cut off without ado his thumb, and gave it unto Drona. After this, when the Nishada prince began once more to shoot with the help of his remaining fingers, he found, O king, that HE HAD LOST HIS FORMER LIGHTNESS OF HAND. And at this Arjuna BECAME HAPPY, the FEVER OF JEALOUSY having left him.”

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  6. Karna must be 7-8 years elder to Arjuna, as he was the first son of Kunti. But still, he was jealous of Arjuna in Drona’s ashram and wanted Brahmastra from Drona to kill Arjuna in battle. An adult Karna challenged a teenaged Arjuna in Rangshala. It would not have been a fair competition. This also shows how Arjuna had become a threat to great warrior, even at a very young age.

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    1. Dear Anand.
      by current standards even an old man is also senior citizen and its not fair to challenge him to one on one battle. Still drona and bheeshma were proving the film title Buddha hoga — . 18 year old Boris Becker was more dangerous than 22 year old Boris Becker at Wimbledon.

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    1. Thank U, wish you the same although a little late.

      I think Vishnu is a demigod of Aryans. Narayana seems to be puranic invention. There is nothing common to prove that Parasurama, rama and Krishna are incarnations of same person. They are drastically different from each other

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  7. @Mr I,

    Please read what MB says about relation between Sakra (Indra) and Vishnu:

    “From Aditi have sprung the twelve Adityas who are the lords of the universe. And, O Bharata, as they are according to their names, I shall recount them to thee. They are Dhatri, Mitra, Aryaman, SAKRA, Varuna, Ansa, Vaga, Vivaswat, Usha, Savitri, Tvashtri, and VISHNU. THE YOUNGEST, HOWEVER, IS SUPERIOR TO THEM ALL IN MERIT.”

    But not sure if this Vishnu is Narayana – the ‘Nar’ who is sleeping on ‘Ayana’ (the bed of water) who keeps incarnating himself as avtaars

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    1. Of course, but prior to this mb also mentions past births of all mb characters. For me, these are just funny claims.
      Vishnu is a demi god of the Aryans and narayana and avatars is a puranic invention. There is no connection between parasurama, rama and Krishna.

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    1. Not sure but Parasurama did have negative opinion about Kshatriya as his father was murdered by them.

      Bhishma got entry pass because of his mother who was an object of adoration for all brahmins and sages. Even with this qualification, bhishma would not have been allowed had parashurama made any such vow as people in those days attached lot of importance to their words, much more to vows

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  8. It seems that authers of latter day have tried to change the story in Karna’s favour. They have tried to make Karna superior to Arjuna but fails measurably. Karna’s name comes twice in the list of kings who failed at Draupadi’s swayamwar. But we also see Karna lifting and stringing the bow there. Karna forgets Brahmastra due to his guru’s curse. But next we see Karna firing Brahmastra at Arjuna. A strong Karna couldn’t pull his chariot wheel. But Shalya has no problem in moving that chariot after Karna’s death. Very strange ! Karna failed to defeat Arjuna. When Arjuna was about to fire Raudra weapon, Karna came down from his chariot and was trying to buy some time. He pretended to pull his chariot wheel from the mud.

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    1. It seems most of the important warriors were favored at different points of time by different poets. There are many inconsistencies during Drona’s death also.

      If Shalya could move the chariot wheel, which karna could not, it could be due to the brahmana’s curse. Or rationally, it could be due to Shalya’s deceit in terms with his agreement with yudhi. It was mentioned just before this that karna was getting better than Arjuna. So, shalya could have purposefully inserted the chariot wheel into that kind of pit from which he alone knew how to extract. Or may be as you say the whole scene including the brahmin curse might be interpolation. We do not have enough clues to determine

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    2. Quite possible but in that case his wife or love story, detailed digvijay campaign, Bhanumati’s swayamwar, folklore of him pushing back Arjun’s chariot by few inches, Draupadi’s secret love for him etc would have pages over pages description. Each opening chapter would have bowed to him as greatest danveer ever like Nara, the exalted male being in present MB. He would have been drunk and sleeping during Gandharava attack instead of fleeing the scene. Instead of Bhishma Karna would have been immune to Sammohan in Virat.

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  9. @Sanjay

    Pandavas also didn’t want to kill Bhishma, Drona, Kripa and Ashvatthama themselves. Otherwise Yudhishthira wouldn’t have to give the task of killing Bhishma and Drona to Shikhandi and Dristidyumna respectively. Bhishma and Drona themselves accepted their defeat in Virat war during their conversations with Duryodhana. Drona fought with rage and fired celestial weapons at Arjuna. Arjuna clearly dfeated Drona there and then gave him opportunity to escape. Bhishma fainted and his charioteer removed him from that place. Arjuna defeated Karna repeatedly in Virat war.There was nothing great in coming back and getting defeated again. Karna did the same with Bhima on 14th day. He could prevail over Bhima, only after latter’s weapons exhausted.

    Every warrior in Kurukshetra war were humans. Everyone had their own limitations, ups and downs. Arjuna was no exception. But his overall career was much better than these Kaurava greats. Arjuna didn’t want war with Saindhavas. He was standing on the ground and not expecting an attack when thousands of Saindhawa chariot warriors attacked him. Abhiras attacked the large concourse of yadavas(mostly women and children) at many places. Arjuna, saddened by Krishna and other Yadvas death, was not ready for a battle. He didn’t have any army with him and his arrows also exhausted at that time. Still, he didn’t leave the ground.

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    1. As long as Bhishma was alive Pandavas could never win the war. Bhishma would never be killed by them even if they wanted due to ichha-mrityu. Rest of warriors would become irrelevant. Karna also confessed to Krishna Yudi was more deserving to be king. He also knew he was fighting a lost war. Arjun had all the divine resources and keep coming back to fight fully equipped & divine protected warrior with ordinary means is no ordinary task.

      Arjun was leading Ashwamedha campaign for war. Your point regard to Saindhavas is also relevant for Gandharavas-Karna episode.

      Arjun not leaving the ground did not make difference because bhills were successful in accomplishing their task.

      See if you tell ten things out of 100 things from one’s life and in token terms but 90 detailed things out of 100 from other person’s life then latter will always gain prominence. And if you can further justify 10 failures as dharma or divine wish, then strike rate will become 100% without much fuss. Top it up with best of the descriptions and smart vocabulary and you have everybody bowing down to Nara – the exalted male being. If Arjun was human so were other Kuru warriors but description in MB makes the desired differences in their characterisation, is the point we should remember.

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  10. Mr I – As your analysis mentions, nothing extraordinary happened in virat war. Bhishma was not defeated, drona also did not leave battle until Arjuna was attacking him. Why do you think it is interpolation then?

    Sanjay – Exactly…..this is my point. If it was an ordinary face-off then why waste pages and pages over this? Exaggeration turned glorification and glorification becomes benchmark? Same contrast can be observed in Rajsuya description and Karna’s digvijay. It is same case – pages over pages v/s one section?

    Mr I – Bhishma etc weren’t keen on killing pandavas but they were obliged to follow Duryo’s orders. Arjuna fought without fear with much stronger lord Shiva. In his other defeats also, we do not see fear angle in him. So, it would be safe to assume that gita itself is an interpolation.

    Sanjay – Bhishma declared he would not kill Pandavas against the wish of Duryodhan. Arjun-Shiva is like Brahmin (Arjun)-Karna in swayamwar. Arjun and Shiva knew their opponents but Arjun and Karna did not. Arjun could not prevail over Shiva but Karna matched Arjun before calling it truce. But that becomes Arjun’s feat and Karna’s black spot. Karna fought Gandharavas with ordinary weapons forcing Chitrasen to use power of illusion from his hideout to dissuade him from war. In contrast Arjun comes fully prepared and liberally uses celestial weapons to fight Chitrasen who had his father’s message for him. Again Arjun is worshipped for saving duryodhan and Karna is accused of leaving him alone.
    I find smart use of vocabulary in KMG; Kuru warriors flee to change chariots but Pandavas change chariots like lions. When Pandavas appearance is talked about they are nothing less than five Indras but Karna despite being son of Surya cannot emit sun’s rays for once? Can you fear if all sundries from common person to Gods are there to help you? The fear would come when Bhishma would not die till he would not wish and Karna with shakti would not spare you.

    Mr I – Is it possible that karna was not really kunti’s son? Karna was brought up as a suta but everyone knew he was a Kshatriya because of his prowess and inclination to arms. However, his father was not known. Pandavas might have exploited this as their last attempt to avoid war.

    Sanjay – Kunti surely exploited that angle but not Pandavas. Arjun had vowed to kill him. However, I cannot speculate that since I have different take on this aspect. Karna was suta out of pratiloma but a kshatriya after all. This is why he was in Drona’s school but Parasurama would not take him due to non-royal lineage unlike Bhishma. Since his father was not royal blood he was low class kshatriya. But society would have other such children so only Karna facing insult would have some other reason as well. There could be 2 such reasons-
    Either he was mocked at for his low status in society since he aspired to match higher kshatriyas in skill,
    OR, people knew him to be an adopted child out of some illicit relation. People taunted him for his low kshatriya class despite having traits of a royal kshatriya. This meant – Tumhari harkatein to sher jaisi hain but tumeh pala hai wolves ne..!
    Psychologically, he was made not to forget that he was illegitimate child. If we accept this reason then your speculation will fall in place perfectly.

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    1. If a brahmin woman and Kshatriya man give birth to a son, he is a suta. This is not necessary in every generation. Adhiratha need not be a Kshatriya and radha a brahmin for karna to be called suta. Once a suta is born to pratiloma pair, and marries another suta, their children are automatically sutas. As sutas are not equal to Kshatriya, they were assigned the profession of charioteering. Even if they fought wars occasionally like Sanjaya, they were not recognized as rathis, maharathis etc. But Karna was born as a Kshatriya and hence behaved as such. He got Duryo’s support much before rangashala and probably it is because of this that he was admitted into drona’s school.

      What we know is that Karna is born to kunti and sun god. But if this were true, kunti would certainly have tried to protect karna’s life.

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      1. If adhiratha was a kshatriya then Radha had to be brahmin for them to be pratiloma. If both were sutas then also Karna would be a suta. However, in first case he still had some dignity for being offspring to two highest classes but same cannot be said in the latter case. Low sutas could also be soldiers or some other lower ranks in army not necessarily charioteer. This is why I opined that Karna was tiger among wolves. As per MB Karna used to get support of Duryodhan only while challenging Arjun. We cannot be sure if Duryodhan recommended him or not. If duryodhan would have recommended him then Kunti should have known him at least if not recognised him at very early stage in life. Rangshala indicates she saw him for first time.
        Kunti did not protect his life at any point in time, is a blunt truth of MB. Even when she met Karna she either offered Karna worldly rewards or begged for Pandavas lives.

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      1. The tasteful story gets amplified when passed on to hundreds of generations orally. Eventually it will end up being a glorified one-sided story – interpolated or not. I think you have hit the nail appropriately.

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  11. Pandavas were not the biological sons of Pandu. But Pandu accepted them as his own sons. It was Pandu who forced Kunti for having sons. Without his permission it was not possible. Again Brahmnas and Rishis, who lived with Pandu, also endorsed what Kunti was saying. Otherwise, Bhishma and Dhritarastra would naver have accepted pandavas as sons of Pandu. It was not possible for Kunti to fool great personalties of that time like Vyasa and Bhishma.

    There might be some doubt about whether Yudhishthira was elder to Duryodhana or not. But Yudhishthira was the son of Pandu, who had been crowned as the king of Hastinapur. Dhritarastra was a caretaker king. Initially he worked as a dummy king. All the decision were made by Bhishma. Yudhishthira was very kind and he was popular among the people of Hastinapur. Kuru elders and most of the ministers also liked him more than Duryodhana. On the otherhand, Duryodhana was arrogant and never obeyed his elders. These were the reasons why Yudhisthira was chosen as crown prince and not Duryodhana.

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    1. But why is it that king pandu did not consider introducing yudhi to hastinapur?
      What was the reason to continue in the forest even after obtaining sons?

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    2. @Anand,

      Kunti should have confided in Pandu about her first son – Karna, before going for niyog with other Gods. Pandu would not have minded a son from God Surya. Pandu had already renounced his kingdom. Pandu also chose not to take Yudi to Hastinapur so even Karna would have also stayed in the forest. All future problems would have been nipped in the bud.

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        1. Karna was brought up as a suta but everyone knew he was a Kshatriya because of his prowess and inclination to arms. However, his father was not known. Pandavas might have exploited this as their last attempt to avoid war.

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  12. How credible and reliable is Virat war?
    All Kuru warriors were in different league in Kurukshetra war.
    Arjun had all the resources in Virat except Krishna and Geeta yet his confidence in Virat was nowhere to be seen in Kurukshetra?

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    1. There might be some exaggeration, but Virata war was real. It was a very important event in Mahabharata. This war was recalled many times by many people in the epic. It can not be interpolation. Arjuna alone fought many kaurava maharathis including Karna and killed Jayadratha on 14th day of Kurukshetra war. So there can not be any doubt about him defeating many Kuru maharathis in Virat. However the motive of Virat war was different to that of Kurkshetra war. Arjuna was there for checking Kauravas and not for killing them. So no Gita required.

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      1. Motive of Duryodhan & company was to disseminate agyatwas of Pandavas and not kill Arjun. Bhishma & company were there to sabotage cow wealth of Virat. Neither had motive to fight Vrihnala-Arjun with all celestial resources in tow. When he made first move the Kuru maharathis fought him one after the other in queue. Description suggests a friendly drill / match of skill instead of war. Ashwathama had to leave due to exhaustion of weapons not because of Arjun’s prowess. Bhishma never left. Karna w/o divine KK and Vijaya bow kept coming back. When all came together then Arjun used sammohan to evade full scale war. Still Bhishma was unaffected.
        In Kurukshetra, Karna joined late and was the only one baying for Arjun’s blood. Bhishma, Drona and probably Kripa would never kill Pandavas specially Arjun. Ashwathama would play stoic till provoked. So the motive angle then suggests that Arjun wanted Geeta for the people who would not kill him? This assumption, however, defies logic. So the only answer could be that probably he wanted to quit war for fear of Kuru’s might. Use of sammohan in Kurikshetra would have allowed Pandavas to capture Duryodhan and negotiate beneficial deal instead of wrecking havoc.
        Arjun did face all Kuru warriors including Karna to reach Jyadratha but he could achieve his purpose by some divine magic of Krishna only. Same happened in Ashwamedha yaga while fighting Saindhava warriors where his life was saved by celestial rishis. He met his fate at the hands of Babruvahan. He could not handle his own Gandiva and forgot invoking celestial weapons against plundering bhills. In the end chariot burning confirms that even Kuru warriors were nowhere their actual potential in Virat war. Therefore exaggeration would have also gone ahead as glorification at least if not 100% interpolation.
        As far as event being repeated by many people many times point is concerned then no one repeated disrobing of Draupadi either. At the most insult was mentioned which could indicate slavery angle as well.

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        1. As your analysis mentions, nothing extraordinary happened in virat war. Bhishma was not defeated, drona also did not leave battle until Arjuna was attacking him. Why do you think it is interpolation then?
          Bhishma etc weren’t keen on killing pandavas but they were obliged to follow Duryo’s orders. Arjuna fought without fear with much stronger lord Shiva. In his other defeats also, we do not see fear angle in him. So, it would be safe to assume that gita itself is an interpolation.

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    1. Well, not know much about him…..though few points

      His elephant was a big asset to him. Bheema had tough time tackling it.
      He could not subdue Karna, if I recall correctly.

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    2. Bhagdutta, minus his elephant Supratika and Vaishnavastra, was just an average rathi. He and other nine Kaurava maharathis/rathis were checked alone by Bhima on 10th day, when Bhishma was attacked.

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      1. Bhagadatta might be an ordinary maharathi but by no means was he a rathi. Krishna tells yudhi that bhagadatta has chastised naraka and muru.

        Bhishma also considered him as an important maharathi and nominated him alone to fight with ghatotkacha.

        What is big deal in one warrior checking multiple warriors for some time? Even Dussasana held Arjuna in check for a few minutes on 10th day. Does that make dussasana a maharathi or Arjuna a rathi?

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  13. @Mr I,

    “When the Kauravas saw them introduced as the sons of Pandu, the distinguished class of citizens shouted exceedingly for joy. Some, however, said, they were not the sons of Pandu; others said, they were; WHILE A FEW ASKED HOW THEY COULD BE HIS OFFSPRING, SEEING HE HAD BEEN SO LONG DEAD. Still on all sides voices were heard crying, ‘They are on all accounts welcome! Through divine Providence we behold the family of Pandu! Let their welcome be proclaimed!”

    This is the point I mentioned – Pandavas birth was doubtful as Pandu’s sons

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    1. The reason for the doubt is that pandu did not show them to hastinapur. Even if he did not really want kingdom back, what was the harm in just sending a messenger to hastinapur about the birth of his sons? His behaviour certainly raises eyebrows.

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      1. It seems Pandu stuck to his renounciation of kingdom but probably Kunti / Yudi had different plans. The plan got wings after Pandu’s and Madri’s death. Further, deeds of Duryodhan unknowingly supported the plan.

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  14. Puranas are mentioned in MB. Modern historians trace them during last 2000 years. Shaivs and Vaishnavas are also blamed for glorifying Shiva and Vishnu through present day puranas. So it is quite possible that Puranas of MB were different from modern day Puranas. They were also re-written like present-day MB hence many inaccuracies due to interpolation and personal opinions

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  15. While we have many festivals to celebrate the victories of Shiva, Rama, Krishna etc, there is no major festival to celebrate victories of Indra. Puranic stories have clouded the real history

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  16. Why do you think Karna’s exploits of defeating Jarasandh, all kings at Bhanumati’s swayamwar, him winning whole India and brahmin cursing him are given in few lines? In contrast rajsuya yaga, virat war, ashwamedha yaga, khandava dah & any Tom, Dick and Harry meeting Pandavas and giving irrelevant sermons have been given elaborate dscription.

    People also claim Karna was asura dambodhav but MB is silent on this despite mentioning Arjun-Krishna as Nara-Narayana umpteen times. Other previous births

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    1. of Pandavas and Draupadi have also been mentioned but not Karna’s. Has Sahastrakavach theory been floated by Arjun fans to degrade Karna as Asura?

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      1. I believe that originally vaisampayana explained all stories briefly. But janamejaya being a direct descendent of Arjuna wanted to know more about the glory of pandavas in general and Arjuna in particular. Thus vaisam had to elaborate those parts.

        Apart from this, there are too many interpolations in mb. The best example is drona’s death. Once the epic says his weapons exhausted, very next we see him shooting arrows. Aswathama was able to see drona’s soul through the sky but later duryo and kripa had to inform aswa about dron’s death. Similarly Krishna is said to have saved draupadi from being disrobed but later Krishna says he did not even know that dice game had taken place. And we see 2 karnas in draupadi swayamwar etc.

        There is no way to determine who was behind these interpolations and which character was benefited the most by them.

        Regarding past births, I do not believe in any of them. Neither is Arjuna Nara nor is Krishna narayana.

        There is no kshatriya dharma in gambling. I think yudhi had gambled considering it as an order from Dhrita, a father figure.

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  17. Mr I – My view is those in the spiritual path do not depend on children to enter heaven/ god’s kingdom. They depend on their own merit. Bhishma did not have a son. Can we say heaven is unattainable to him? As you have accepted that pandu was not on spiritual path, let us look at the remorse aspect. After shooting the deer, pandu was vehemently defending his action which angered kindama. If only pandu had begged for forgiveness, perhaps he might not have been cursed.

    Sanjay – Yes but as I told attaining heaven is not true spirituality, at least for me. Heaven and hell are karma dependent. Pandu felt he did wrong so to compensate that karma he punished himself by renouncing worldly comforts. Scriptures also instruct you need son to help you get last rites done appropriately. Bhishma did not have son but he was already a qualifier to heaven for his rigid vow, life-long celibacy and adherence to kshatriya dharma. I think Pandu was trying that kind of hard way to heaven. We should not forget that he was a Vasu himself unlike Pandu who was a human. Pandu could have asked for forgiveness still it was rishi’s prerogative to curse him or not. King Dushratha and Karna were cursed despite asking for forgiveness.

    Mr I – If kindama had died on the spot, pandu would have continued to rule the kingdom. But because of the curse, he can no longer have that ultimate pleasure, or continue his race. So, he felt as he was unsuccessful in material life, he would spend the rest of his life for obtaining spiritually exalted state. This is a laudable move and he saw some initial success. In fact mb even says that he became almost like a brahmarshi. But news of gandhari’s conception brought him back to level 1 and he desperately felt the need for a son

    Sanjay – Gandhari’s conception invoked in him the worldly desire of being a family man. This is what mind does to us especially if you are in hath-yog kind of asceticism. Remember Vishvamitra, Durvasa..? Lust and anger brought them down

    Mr I – What exactly is ethical or moral is hard to decide. Arjuna was a Kshatriya. So, marrying multiple women should be o.k. As per their agreement, he was supposed to spend 12 years without thinking about draupadi. But this celibacy does not apply to other women. Similarly only sanyasis are not allowed to have wealth.

    Sanjay – The undercurrent in my question is EXILE. If you are doing in exile what you were already doing in king’s palace then you have cheated the whole agenda behind exile. Pandu, Yudi, Ram, Laxman and Seeta also went for exile but not like Arjun.

    Mr I – As both Duryo and Yudhi were contenders, their age became important. If yudhi was born later , then probably Duryo would have become the crown prince.but yudhi age cannot be determined.bhishma and others trusted vyasa, kunti etc.

    Sanjay – I think MB goes by parentage for kingship not by age. I hope I am not confused this time.

    Mr I – Yudhi was benevolent, it can’t be questioned but duryo would be a fool to give 5 villages or anything because he was at the best of his strength with support from multiple kings and many great warriors in his own army. If duryo gave away 5 villages, then after w few years, bhishma, drona, vahlika, somadatta, kripa, bhagadatta etc would have died a natural death. If yudhi attacks hastinapur at this stage, duryo will not be able to defend himself. So, he wanted the great battle when bhishma and drona were still capable of fighting

    Sanjay – In addition to your valid reason please read below my answer on quora-
    “Apart from all answers which mention very obvious reasons, I would like to touch upon the perceptional aspect of this offering and refusal of five villages.
    Which five villages is debatable but Krishna asked for FIVE only, strategically – one village for each brother. This meant each brother heading each village. Given their warrior track record it would just be formality for each one to declare himself sovereign ruler of respective village (kingdom). Five small kingdoms together could be a potent force within Hastinapur and if they could revolt against Hastinapur, it would be highly effective given the fact that people also fancied them. Going by kshatriya dharma if these village-kingdoms would aspire to go for Rajsuya or Ashwamedha yaga supporting each other, there could be another Indraprasth and Emperor in the making like Yudhishthira became in Indraprastha. So the life for Duryodhan would take a full circle and come back to same point.
    This, according to me, was the plan of Krishna which was shrewdly refuted by Duryodhan. I also agree with other assessments as well.”

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    1. If Yudhi wanted only 5 villages to avoid war, why did he need them only from Duryodhana? He could have got them easily from Drupada or they could have easily conquered a few villages anywhere on earth. Then the great war could be avoided or at least postponed

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      1. Yes, you have a point.

        Let us see the whole sequence of things. Pandu renounces throne then he has desire to go family way which he cannot. He chose to go niyog way and gets five sons who stay in forest. To his misfortunes he is unable to control his desires and dies. Now Hastinapur needs to be informed. Hastinapur gets to know about his five sons as well. For Duryodhan, who was brought with the fact till date that he was the future king, Pandavas’ arrival come as shock. Being a child he cannot understand or accept Niyog. In the meantime Bheema keeps bullying his brothers every now and then which fuels his anger further. To avenge this and quench his hatred he tries killing Bheem. Bheem survives and no one questions Duryo which adds to his confidence. He grows up with same confidence and conspire Lakshagriha because Bhishma, Drona, Kripa and Vidura vote Yudi to be appointed as Yuvraj. By the time Pandavas return after escape with Draupadi in tow Duryodhan is also a Yuvraj. Bhishma suggests partition of Hastinapur to balance the act. Duryodhan gets insulted during Pandavas’ Rajsuya yaga and plans to avenge his insult. Dice game happens and he takes away Indraprastha and ensures that Pandavas never return due to agyatwas clause. The war is kept at bay till this point.

        Agyatwas and its closure emerges controversial. War seems inevitable. Krishna plays peace-maker and asks for 5 villages. If duryo refuses war is confirmed, if Duryo accepts the war is still inevitable but delayed because Pandavas will always extend their territories beyond 5 villages being kashtriya.

        Therefore, the war could actually be avoided if Duryo or Yudi would forego his claim of kingdom which Yudi’s father had renounced by vow. Pandu also never took them to royal palace during his life time is a testimony to his intent. But under the light of above events same cannot be said true for Pandavas.

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        1. I believe yudhi had made the biggest blunder after the dice game. Instead of accepting his defeat, he could simply have said, I do not recognize this dice game, indraprsstha is mine, do what you can. Saying so, he could have continued as emperor. Duryo would not have dared to attack indraprastha as yudhi was richer and had support of more number of kings.

          People would have called him a liar but even now he has got the same name due to lying about aswa to dron

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          1. Yes.
            This is why I say Pandavas are not what they are perceived as. There was something fishy about their good image.
            If it was Yudi’s kshatriya dharma to accept challenge of dice game then he could have done so but it was not kshatriya dharma to stake brothers. He would have stopped at that point. His brothers were still aware of what was happening but he staked his wife without her knowledge. She was right in questioning her stake.

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  18. Was it ethical and morally correct for Arjun to get married twice and lead luxurious life during his exile? He was also carrying lot of wealth with him because he did lot of donations to brahmins.

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    1. What exactly is ethical or moral is hard to decide. Arjuna was a Kshatriya. So, marrying multiple women should be o.k. As per their agreement, he was supposed to spend 12 years without thinking about draupadi. But this celibacy does not apply to other women. Similarly only sanyasis are not allowed to have wealth.

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  19. Pandu was desperate for a heir. He never said that his son will not be the king. Dhritarastra was just a caretaker king. This was the reason why the eldest son of Pandu was made the crown prince. Dhritarastra always wanted his son to become the next king. But he was under the pressure Bhishma and Vidura. Duryodhana’s claim on the throne of Hastinapur also can not be ignored. Both Yudhishthira and Duryodhana wanted to become the king. However Yudhishthira was always ready to compromise. He would have accepted even a small area in Kuru kingdom as his share.

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    1. Pandu never said that his son would be the king either. If he wanted then he would have taken Yudi to Hastinapur as opined by Mr I. We should also remember that he wanted sons beyond Yudi.

      Regarding Yudi accepting smaller area, request you to read my answer to the question – Why did Krishna ask for five villages for Pandavas? on Quora.

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      1. As both Duryo and Yudhi were contenders, their age became important. If yudhi was born later , then probably Duryo would have become the crown prince.but yudhi age cannot be determined.bhishma and others trusted vyasa, kunti etc.

        Yudhi was benevolent, it can’t be questioned but duryo would be a fool to give 5 villages or anything because he was at the best of his strength with support from multiple kings and many great warriors in his own army. If duryo gave away 5 villages, then after w few years, bhishma, drona, vahlika, somadatta, kripa, bhagadatta etc would have died a natural death. If yudhi attacks hastinapur at this stage, duryo will not be able to defend himself. So, he wanted the great battle when bhishma and drona were still capable of fighting

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    1. Cann’t say definitely….

      Abhimanyu’s and Ghatotkach’s exploits in Kurukshetra war are well documented. Abhimanyu and Ghatotakach both had Karna angle in their death. Vrishasena had no such feat of dealing heroically with any great Pandu warrior to boast about.

      Vrishsena survived war. MB mentions Arjun developed liking for him. He accompanied Arjun in Ashwamedha yaga as well and died in one of the fights. Arjun had liking for him but did not try avenging his death is interesting to know especially when he had no son left and him knowing his father Karna being his eldest brother.

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      1. Which vrishasen are you referring to? Wasn’t he killed by Arjun on 17th day kuruksetra?

        Vrishasena defeated nakula and drupada.

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  20. Because king pandu had not shown yudhi immediately after his birth to hastinapur, why should yudhi’s age(being elder to Duryo) be trusted?

    For me, it seems that pandu conspired with vidura against dhrita and himself became king.

    After kindama’s curse, he wanted to probably obtain a son by ascetic strength. Hence he retired into the woods. However failing to achieve that kind of spiritual energy, he was advised by other ascetics to resort to niyoga.

    It is at the same time when gandhari was conceiving duryo.

    Pandu pressurized kunti for niyoga. Kunti tried to advise him to procreate by spiritual means but he was in no mood to wait. He wanted a son immediately. Not just a son but also heir. He mentioned which sons are only kinsmen and which are both kinsmen and heirs.

    If pandu had no interest in kingdom, why was he in such a hurry to have a son(before Duryo’s birth)?

    As pandu did not immediately show yudhi, it could also be possible that duryo was born first.

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    1. I think age factor between Yudi and Duryo is not mentioned in MB. It was highlighted by BR Chopra’s MB.

      Our dear friend Sachin had extended thoughts on your guess – Pandu was impotent and Vidura had an affair with Kunti. Yudi (probably all Pandavas, if I remember correctly) was born out of this relation.

      If he had renounced all rights of kings why would Pandu need a heir?

      This is why he wanted to have kids:-

      “O amiable one, joining my palms furnished with rosy fingers, and making of them a cup as of lotus leaves, I place them on my head to propitiate thee. O thou of lair looks, it behoveth thee to raise offspring, at my command, through some Brahmana possessed of high ascetic merit. For then, owing to thee, O thou of fair hips, I MAY GO THE WAY THAT IS RESERVED FOR THOSE THAT ARE BLESSED WITH CHILDREN.”

      This is why showing Hastinapur to Yudi was not on his agenda.

      Uska tarpan-sanskar karne ke liye koi chahiya tha usse..!

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      1. It cannot be vidura. Niyoga requires that only those superior to pandu should do that. Even if we do not believe in gods theory, it has to some brahmins of uttara kuru region.

        If all that pandu wanted was a son through niyoga, what was the need to retire into woods? He could have got it done in hastinapur itself. He himself was born by that process.

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          1. Pandu was not on spiritual path. He wanted to repent his deed. He wanted to kind of punish himself like Yudi did penance after dice game or Arjun went for self-exile.

            If you are on spiritual path then also there is no hard and fast rule that you cannot go family way. Many spiritual personalities were householders. They may not bother about children or worldly relations after realising God and reality of illusion but that can happen with anybody who has achieved that stage of consciousness. The basic tenant of spirituality is to furnish all your responsibilities while doing your spiritual progress. True spirituality is independent of the fact whether you are in king’s palace or forest. Worldly renouncement is in the mind not in one’s attire or lifestyle.

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            1. My view is those in the spiritual path do not depend on children to enter heaven/ god’s kingdom. They depend on their own merit. Bhishma did not have a son. Can we say heaven is unattainable to him?

              As you have accepted that pandu was not on spiritual path, let us look at the remorse aspect. After shooting the deer, pandu was vehemently defending his action which angered kindama. If only pandu had begged for forgiveness, perhaps he might not have been cursed.

              Like

              1. If kindama had died on the spot, pandu would have continued to rule the kingdom. But because of the curse, he can no longer have that ultimate pleasure, or continue his race. So, he felt as he was unsuccessful in material life, he would spend the rest of his life for obtaining spiritually exalted state. This is a laudable move and he saw some initial success. In fact mb even says that he became almost like a brahmarshi. But news of gandhari’s conception brought him back to level 1 and he desperately felt the need for a son

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        1. Vidura was Sachin’s idea.

          Retiring to woods by renouncing kingdom and its comforts was to repent his killing of Rishi not to have son. His birth was to ensure heir for Hastinapur throne. In contrast, he wanted son for his last rites not for throne as per MB.

          Like

  21. Good to see the blog up again, good also to see Mr. Anand Shankar back. Big hi to all of you.

    Why do you think king pandu did not show yudhistira etc to hastinapur and kunti had to take help of vyasa and others later to introduce her sons?

    Like

    1. Mr I

      A big Hi to u as well…!

      It seems u wr also watching blog to reopen.

      Going by MB, Pandu had renounced all worldly comforts and rights as king to repent killing of rishi. That means had he been alive Pandavas would hv stayed in forest all their lives hence hopefully no Kurukshetra war, I think.

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      1. If Pandu has renounced his rights(which he did), kunti and her sons can stay in hastinapur but how can Yudhi lay claim to the throne?

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        1. That precisely was Duryo’s complaint. To an extent he was right also bcz Pandu could nt father kids since he was cursed against mating. This was known to everyone and Duryo was nt ready to accept them as God’s sons. Moreover Dhritrashtra was under the impression that Pandu wld neither return nor hv offsprings to reclaim renounced throne. This made him nurture the feeling in Duryo that he wld b the future king. Death of Pandu spoilt his party

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          1. What is your opinion about pandu’s coronation as against Dhrita’s? If blindness is the concern, how the same person ruled the kingdom from pandu’s death to kuruksetra time?

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            1. Well you have a point..

              But if physically fit king is available then why go for blind king?
              If physically fit is unavailable and no option left except blind king then you have no other choice. The throne cannot lie vacant so install a blind king.

              Had Pandu remained king Bhishma would have chosen death. Since blind Dhritrashtra was vulnerable king owing to his blindness Bhishma could not be absolved of his responsibilities and had to continue living in the hope that gen next would provide worthy king.

              However, none of these hopefuls knew how the future would unfold in the form of curse to Pandu which totally changed the course of things.

              Like

  22. Question: Who is powerful than Arjun?

    Arjun Kumar on 14th Feb, 2017:

    NO ONE IS THE POWERFULL THAN ARJUNA IN MAHABHARAT.
    WHY?
    >>HE DEFEATED BHISMA MANY TIMES BUT BHISMA NEVER DEFEATED ARJUNA.
    DEFEAT OF BHISMA BY HANDS OF ARJUNA:- VIRAT WAR, 3RD DAY OF KURUKSHTRA WAR, 2RD DAY OF KURUKSHTRA WAR
    >>HE DEFEATED DRONA MANY TIMES BUT DRONA NEVER DEFEATED ARJUNA.
    DEFEAT OF DRONA BY HANDS OF ARJUNA:- VIRAT WAR, 2nd day of kurukshttra, 3rd day of kurukshtra,10th day, 15th day
    >>HE DEFEATED KARNA MANY TIMES BUT KARNA NEVER DEFEATED ARJUNA.
    defeat of karna by hands of Arjuna:-draupadi syamwar, virat war, 14th day(3 times), 14th night, 15th day,17th day
    >>HE DEFEATED ASHWTHAMA MANY TIMES BUT ASHWTHAMA NEVER DEFEATED ARJUNA.

    Sanjay commented:

    If Arjun was powerful then:
    1. Why did he need celestial weapons from devas? Bhishma, Drona, Karna, Kripa, Ashwathama never needed that
    2. Why could Arjun not make Bhishma sleep in Virat war?
    3. Why did he have to tell a lie in Draupadi swayamwar when Karna asked his identity after matching him shot for shot?
    4. Why did he never fight without Gandiva and his celestial quiver after acquiring it? Karna used Vijaya bow on last day of his life.
    5. Why did Indra, Krishna and Kunti tricked, lured and requested Karna respectively to save Pandavas/Arjun’s life?
    6. Why was Karna’s Kavach taken away by trick by Arjun’s ever-conspiring father?
    7. Why was his life saved by celestial sages during Ashwamedha campaign when Saindhavas attacked him fatally?
    8. Why could he not save his life from Babruvahan?
    9. Why could Arjun not win whole India during Rajsuya campaign like Karna did alone for Duryodhan? Why only he chose to do same during Ashwamedha yaga after Kurukshetra war when India hardly had any great warrior surviving? There also he had tough time.
    10. Why Krishna had to lower the chariot to save him from Karna’s nagasatra?
    11. Why did Krishna prefer to take away Arjun from battle scene to enquire Yudi’s well being instead of letting him face Bharagavstra firing Karna which was damaging Pandavas army?
    12. Why Krishna had to make Karna use Shakti on Ghatotkach?
    13. Why could Arjun not save Yadava ladies and wealth from bheels?
    14. Why did Arjun had to use celestial weapons on friendly Gandharva king Chitrasen to defeat him? Karna fought Gandhravas without any celestial weapon and slaughtered them in thousands which made Chitrasen use illusions instead of facing Karna in one on one battle.
    15. Why did Arjun need Shikhandi to sabotage an aged Bhishma?
    16. Why did Arjun had to kill Karna when he was taking out his wheel?
    17. Last but not the least – why did Arjun’s divine chariot burn to ashes after the war when Krishna and Hanuman de-boarded it?

    So there are many such ‘whys’ about Arjun’s prowess as well. I hope you realise the fact from original MB that everybody kept on equipping Arjun with all resources but stripping off Karna of whatever little advantages he had? This contrast clearly establishes who was more powerful and who humbled whom in Kurukshetra war on 17th day

    Arjun Kumar replied:

    1 because he was alone from pandava side but kauravas have many maharathi especially drona and ashthama, Ashwthama even knew vajra weapon of indra since gurukul times.
    2 because bhisma was most physically powerful person amongst kauravas hence he did bear the sound of arjuna’s conch.
    3, LOL please provide me proof that Arjuna lied karna in symawara, fact is that Karna fled from fear of Arjuna during syamwara, vaishyampyan himself said that karna was in fear
    4 WHY ARJUNA ALWAYS USED GANDIVA BOW ?
    Answer is pretty simple….Ordinary bows could not bear the strength of Arjuna’s arms and the might which he puts forth in a battle,so he used Gandiva bow.
    >> PROOF 1: KHANDAVA DAHAN (Arjuna to Agni Deva) –
    But, O exalted one, I have no bow suited to the strength of my arms, and capable of bearing the might I may put forth in battle. In consequence of the lightness of my hands also I require arrows that must never be exhausted.
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01227.htm
    >> PROOF 2: VIRAT YUDH (Arjuna to Prince Uttar) –
    For these bows of thine are unable to bear my strength, my heavy weight when I shall grind down horses and elephants, and the stretch of my arms when I seek to vanquish the foe.
    http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m04/m04040.htm
    THE FACT IS EVEN GANDIVA BOW WAS UNABLE TO COMPLETELY BEAR ARJUNA’S STRENGTH,IN THE FINAL BATTLE AGAINST KARNA,ONE THE BOW STRINGS OF GANDIVA BROKE DUE THE STRENGTH WITH WHICH ARJUNA WAS SHOOTING ARROWS –
    5 please provide me proof that Goddess kunti begged Arjuna’s life from Karna, please dont give the statement of yudhistir……give the proof from actual kunti-karna meeting.
    6 because Karna was unslayable with kawach-kundal, brahman surya himself certified this fact
    7 MISCONCEPTION :- ARJUNA WAS DEFEATED BY SAINDHAVA WARRIORS
    8 Arjuna was never slained by babrubahana, he only made him unconsincous because Arjuna was mild on babrubahana, And ulupi had used illusion in this battle.
    9 it is a biggest jokes that Karna had conquered whole world, exaggeration statement does not mean he conquered whole world. he only did the some conquest for duryodhana’s sake like king pandu.
    10 it was not Karna’s nagastra, actually it was ashwsena snake
    11 Arjuna never fled from Karna
    13 but fact is, Arjuna defeated that robber
    15 because Arjuna did not want to kill bhisma but later what happened, when shikhandi failed to killed superhero bhisma then Arjuna himself killed bhisma.
    16 it is another biggest lie that Arjuna killed weaponless Karna, fact is that it is not written in mahabharat arjuna killed weaponless karna so dont talk in air, Karna was killed fairly.
    17 shalya sarva section 61&62 is later addition of mahabharat.

    Sanjay replied:

    Just using Lol evertime does not negate the facts of MB which you are trying to hide behind. You are not first Arjun fan I have come across who believe in MB as per their whims and fancies. The biggest Lol is your point no. 17.Since Quora is not discussion blog I cordially invite you on “Greatest Warrior of All Time” to post above list of your Lol’s for me to respond. Mr. Anand Shankar, one of the quorans to this question has been a dignified Arjun fan there earlier. I miss him. To save your time I am posting our respective posts there so that when you are there you will immerse in discussion without any formalities.
    I look forward to have some intelligent discussion with you.

    Like

  23. Dear Dhruv. Glad to see you have reopened your blog. Now prediction is Sachin will come back and try lure me into debate which leads to both of getting abusuive. He had lost all his debates is eager for a rematch. After you had closed down your blog he went to True meaning of Gar and tried to challenge me there. I had conveywed him the following message that winning boxer does not give looser a rematch.
    Just as below example shows.

    By Chris Williams: For those who remember the great Muhammad Ali’s shocking 8th round stoppage of the then unbeaten George Foreman on October 30th in 1974, they saw a great fight from Ali in which he used a now famous rope a dope, along with a lot of pawing and clinching to tire out and eventually stop a young 26 year-old Foreman in the hot outside ring in the Democratic Republic Of The Congo. What people don’t remember, however, is that Foreman pursued Ali (Just as Sachin pursued Niraj ) afterwards trying to get a rematch with him and having no luck whatsoever in getting Ali back in the ring.
    Instead of facing Foreman once again, Ali moved on to a long series of easy fights against the likes of Chuck Wepner, Joe Bugner, Jean-Pierre Coopman, Richard Dunne, all without giving Foreman another rematch.

    So Sri Dhruv my Mohammed Ali stance is well maintained. No rematch with loosing Foreman. Sachin. As he has already lost all his debates and only thing he has to come up with is personal vendetta and again and again the same points.

    Like

  24. Sanjay this is for you. Indian army acknowledges Karnas greatness.
    Indian Navy’s elite Marcos Commandos is named as KARNA. Just for the record.
    MARCOS, previously named as Marine Commando Force (MCF), is the special forces unit of the Indian Navy. created for conducting special operations such as Amphibious warfare, Close Quarter Combat Counter-terrorism, Direct action, Special reconnaissance, Unconventional warfare, Hostage rescue, Personnel recovery, Combat search and rescue, Asymmetric warfare, Foreign internal defence, Counterproliferation, Amphibious reconnaissance including Hydrographic reconnaissance. The MCF is specially organised, trained and equipped for the conduct of special operations in a maritime environment.[2] MARCOS is short for Marine Commandos.

    Like

  25. The puissant Dhananjaya regarded it all as the work of destiny. Filled with sorrow he breathed heavy sighs at the thought of the Non-Appearance Of His (Celestial) Weapons, the loss of the might of his arms, the refusal of his bow to obey him, and the exhaustion of his shafts. Regarding it all as the work of destiny, he became exceedingly cheerless. He then ceased, O king, to make further efforts, saying, he had not the power which he had before. Ha ha ha koi Ram ki yeh durgati dikhaye ramayan main tucche bandits ke saamne. This even if we acknowledge Arjuna was undefeated here. This infact strengthens point of virata yudha. One man cant defeat battalion of petty bandits maharathi door ki baat.

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  26. Sachin Arjuna ki thekedaari to aap hi ki thi. You said he was above his contemprories to uski gun gaatha aaap sabit kijiye. Virata yudha to NZ accont mein aa hi chuka which is superior to your bangladeshi point. Virat yudha supernatural as limitations of human facutly support me. Bandit passages will be giving it to you shortly.
    “Rama was never helpless in front of any opponent.” And Vali point well made Sita was kidnapped and hence no time to fight for days with Vali. You have not come up with any refutation.
    Pont on Shivaji – ab to mere has has ke dam nikalgaya. Just as expected no incident of Shivaji killing 100 soldiers shown by Mr. Sachin. Sanajy reading here kya aap bhi abtak romans conquering India incident ki raah dekh rahen hai. Sachin has already admiited Shivaji example hypothetical not practical engough said.
    Sachin ans My ans- Ha…ha…ha…. What a Bachkaana point….. Ram was cluless in front of Naagpaash of Indrajeet & almost lost his life & lost the battle against Indrajeet….. So let me ask you, what is the definition of “Ghuguprassad” according to you ?? Does it only applies to Arjun ?? Ha…ha…ha…. What a funny debator….!!
    My ans to Arjuna ne kaunsa nagapash ke tukde Kardiye. Proove this from Valmiki Ramayana Rama ghughuprasad in nagpasha don’t talk in air. Steed point well made. Sanjay ( no Sanjay not you but sanjay the reporter challanged just like Karna and krishna. )

    Coming the Karna Kunti and Bhima triangle lo kallo baat account mein to arjunas pratigya to kill”
    Read pasage properly he absatined from wrelsting match but before that he was regularly hitting bhima with bow.
    The Suta’s son, however, with his sharp shafts, repeatedly caused the distressed Bhima, to lose the sense. But Karna, recollecting the words of Kunti, took not the life of the unarmed Bhima.
    HERE KARNA SEES WITH ARROWS BHIMA IS GETTING SENSLESS AND HE DOES NOT WANT TO INJURE BHIMA FURTHER AS HIS VOW TO KUNTI IS IN DANGER. BHIMA IS LOSING SENSE HERE.
    Approaching quickly Karna touched him with the horn of his bow. And as he stood there in weakness, Karna once more touched him with the bow.
    Hhere Karna gives two bow hits to weak bhima. Here karna is armed he knows he cannot shower arrows on bhima further as bhima was loosing sense and standining in weakness. he has already relaxed his bow attack. because he knows a further arrow attack on bhima as he was loosing sense already kunti vow in danger.
    Bhima challenges for wreslting match. karna abstained from wreslting match doesn’t attack further with arrows seeing that bhima was loosing sense when attacked with arrows and realizes kuntis pledge in danger ( not just unarmed looosing sense and in weakness ) some more verbal communicaton takes place and arjuna butts immediately
    Understanding the motives of Bhima, Karna, that foremost of intelligent men, abstained from that combat in the very sight of all the bowmen. Indeed, having made Bhima carless, Karna, O king, reproved him in such boastful language in the sight of that lion among the Vrishnis (viz., Krishna) and of the high-souled Partha. Then the ape-bannered (Arjuna), urged by Kesava, shot at the Suta’s son, O king, many shafts whetted on stone. Those arrows adorned with gold, shot by Partha’s arms and issuing out of Gandiva, entered Karna’s body, like cranes into the Krauncha mountains. With those arrows shot from Gandiva which entered Karna’s body like so many snakes, Dhananjaya drove the Suta’s son from Bhimasena’s vicinity.
    So see that abstain was to wreslting match and Karna was a man regularly talking to bhima and at internavl hitting him with bow. After the last verbal communication Arjuna butted in. Before Karna could talk further or give a further bow hit. And by the way abstain means refrain voluntarily as per dictionary meaning of the word avoid
    Similar – to stay away from both from dictionary.
    Here Bhima also does the same thing
    Then Bhimasena, AVOIDING KARNA, that best of car-warriors, proceeded against the Kaurava troops like a blazing fire
    Fark sirf itna hai Karna discontinued battle during the abstain and before continuing any interaction with bhima arjuna as usual butted in ( isme nayee baat kya hai ) bhima was loosing sense and Karna knew attacking him further with arrows kunti pledge in danger in bhima avoiding Karna when Karna was in full power below are the passages.
    “Sanjaya said, ‘Meanwhile Vikartana himself, resisting Bhimasena supported by the Pancalas and the Cedis and the Kaikayas, covered him with many arrows. In the very sight of Bhimasena, Karna, slew in that battle many mighty car-warriors among the Cedis, the Karushas, and the Srinjayas. Then Bhimasena, avoiding Karna, that best of car-warriors, proceeded against the Kaurava troops like a blazing fire towards a heap of dry grass.
    Now relaxing attack arrow attack on opponent losing sense and standing in weakness and avoding hand to hand combat and then another warrior butting in is more impressive or getting fired by opponent and avoiding him is more impressive.

    Krishna rescuing from Drona Karna naga astra inclusive and chariot exploded proven stands” You have failed to puncutre it.
    Your statement-“naga astra is not supernatural expert charioteer who is more sharp eyed than a nalla warrior can push a chariot down and rescue him.”
    Sachin My ans- Supernatual point….
    Explain why.
    Sachin ans- Wow, so you acknowledged the incompentence of Krishna…. Great !! And above point is already proved as IRRELEVANT……
    My ans – Great you also have acknowledged Arjunas ghughuprasad status on front of astras.
    Pont – Fact is that there are many instances where 2 equally powerful astras collided (Brahmastra vs Brahmastra) but still no major harm was done to Surrounding….. E.g. Arjun neutralised Ashwatthama’s Brahmastra on day 19….
    My refutation first of all debate was with Mr. Invincble not you but since this looks like a good point braham astras are of many calibre Arjuna fired one brahmastra of lowest level which was shattered with ordinary arrows as well. But brahmashira astra was of different calbire just like delayed bomb which burst arjunas charito a la syrina tank.
    Sachins Punctured point again…… Karna fired Bhargavastra twice & both times it was not nullified.
    , & still it COULD NOT KILL ANY DAMN MAHARATHI…..
    My ans Proove this from KMG Vyasa don’t talk in air.

    Like

  27. Saw 2 different maps of MB times:-

    Map 1:- Hastinapur and Indraprastha were distinctively far off from each other with Kuru(area) between them (more close to Hastinapur than Indraprastha). Hastinapur was at 45 degrees north-east from Indraprastha. Indraprastha was in vicinity of present Delhi and had Kamyak forest on its west on Saraswati river. Hastinapur was shown somewhere in Uttaranchal / Eastern UP with Dwait forest located in its north in the foothills of Himalayas. It was near the origin of Saraswati and Yamuna rivers from Himalayas. Ang was in the far east located at north-west of Bangladesh.

    My views – As per this map Sachin’s assumption is possible that Gandharavas captured Dwait forest since it was in north of Hastinapur….BUT…..this fact of captured forest was unknown to both Kauravas and Pandavas does not make sense. At least Duryo, who spent his life in Hastinapur, would have known about their presence in the forest. As per MB Pandavas first went to Kamayak in their exile and then to Dwait which indicates that their exile began from Indraprastha despite losing dice game at Hastinapur…..? Let us assume that they indeed opted for this illogical route then what was the need to return to Dwait forest (close to Hastinapur) knowing fully that they had to undergo Agyatwas in the end….? Arjun could visit northern Kurus during Rajsuya but not Gandharavas in Dwait….?? Interestingly Gandharava war happened in that forest which failed local boys with army but glorified exiled princes who never met / encountered Gandharavas there during their stay….?? (Please refer Arjun-Chitrasen cordial conversation post war)
    Duryo having his rule over far off Ang emerges as another puzzle because intermediate region had north Panchala, Kosala, Ayodhya, north-east Mithila, Kapilya, Kasi, Magadh, Nepal etc. which were independent kingdoms….!! May be Hastinapur was another Pakistan with distant Bangladesh…..BUT…..then why did Karna conquer Ang during his Digvijay..?? I think Karna’s Ang was some small area near Hastinapur which also allowed him to spend most of his time with Duryo in Hastinapur. So there were indeed 2 Angs as proved by me earlier also. Therefore Bhima, in his Rajsuya campaign, defeated another Karna of mountainous region – Ang.

    Map 2:- Hastinapur and Indraprastha are not shown at all but Ang is same where it was in first map. Instead Kuru East and Kuru West have been shown with northern Panchala on adjacent right of Kuru East. However, it shows both Kamyaka and Dwait forests both in the vicinity of Indraprastha of first map on river Saraswati.

    My comments:- If this map is true then my assessment of Karna and Angdesh stays same rather gets established once again by another evidence. Assuming Indraprastha was on west of Hastinapur (a la Delhi-Meerut) then Pandavas staying in both forests makes sense since they were close by. However, agyatwas angle is still unexplained. They should have planned to avoid Kauravas by moving farther from Hastinapur but they did reverse…..lust for kingdom…? OR awaiting another exile instead of facing mighty Kuru warriors?…..I am more inclined to go for first reason due to the fact that their emergence from agyatwas remained CONTROVERSIAL….!!!

    But whatever is the case, Gandharavas capturing forest remains assumption only because Gandharava Chitrangadh APPROACHED Kuru Chitrangadh for battle as per the text of MB. There was no Naxalite reason for Kuru king to specially go and oust them. Let us assume that still forest was captured then why only Dwait and not Kamayak which was also near Hastinapur…? Let us further assume that Gandharava fancied Dwait only then why go out to fight in Kurukshetra instead of his advantageous bastion of a forest….??
    Hence it can be concluded RATIONALLY and LOGICALLY that there was NO CAPTURING of forest at all..!!
    =================

    Mr Invincible – Gandharvas can only be vanquished by celestial weapons of superior energy. In the ghosha yatra, it is mentioned that while bhima and twins were killing gandharvas in hundreds, Arjuna alone killed 10 lakh gandharvas. This is possible only by celestial weapons which among humans, only Arjuna knew.

    Sanjay – You got it damn CORRECT, my friend! This is the reason why Karna failed and Arjun succeeded with Gandharavas because Karna never used celestial weapons. In fact Karna made them smell rats with ordinary warfare before leaving the scene thanks to illusion of Chitrasen.

    Like

  28. Saw 2 different maps of MB times:-

    Map 1 (https://www.wdl.org/en/item/144/view/1/1/):- Hastinapur and Indraprastha were distinctively far off from each other with Kuru(area) between them (more close to Hastinapur than Indraprastha). Hastinapur was at 45 degrees north-east from Indraprastha. Indraprastha was in vicinity of present Delhi and had Kamyak forest on its west on Saraswati river. Hastinapur was shown somewhere in Uttaranchal / Eastern UP with Dwait forest located in its north in the foothills of Himalayas. It was near the origin of Saraswati and Yamuna rivers from Himalayas. Ang was in the far east located at north-west of Bangladesh.

    My views – As per this map Sachin’s assumption is possible that Gandharavas captured Dwait forest since it was in north of Hastinapur….BUT…..this fact of captured forest was unknown to both Kauravas and Pandavas does not make sense. At least Duryo, who spent his life in Hastinapur, would have known about their presence in the forest. As per MB Pandavas first went to Kamayak in their exile and then to Dwait which indicates that their exile began from Indraprastha despite losing dice game at Hastinapur…..? Let us assume that they indeed opted for this illogical route then what was the need to return to Dwait forest (close to Hastinapur) knowing fully that they had to undergo Agyatwas in the end….? Arjun could visit northern Kurus during Rajsuya but not Gandharavas in Dwait….?? Interestingly Gandharava war happened in that forest which failed local boys with army but glorified exiled princes who never met / encountered Gandharavas there during their stay….?? (Please refer Arjun-Chitrasen cordial conversation post war)
    Duryo having his rule over far off Ang emerges as another puzzle because intermediate region had north Panchala, Kosala, Ayodhya, north-east Mithila, Kapilya, Kasi, Magadh, Nepal etc. which were independent kingdoms….!! May be Hastinapur was another Pakistan with distant Bangladesh…..BUT…..then why did Karna conquer Ang during his Digvijay..?? I think Karna’s Ang was some small area near Hastinapur which also allowed him to spend most of his time with Duryo in Hastinapur. So there were indeed 2 Angs as proved by me earlier also. Therefore Bhima, in his Rajsuya campaign, defeated another Karna of mountainous region – Ang.

    Map 2 (http://defence.pk/threads/ancient-india-in-the-time-of-the-mahabharata.21761/):- Hastinapur and Indraprastha are not shown at all but Ang is same where it was in first map. Instead Kuru East and Kuru West have been shown with northern Panchala on adjacent right of Kuru East. However, it shows both Kamyaka and Dwait forests both in the vicinity of Indraprastha of first map on river Saraswati.

    My comments:- If this map is true then my assessment of Karna and Angdesh stays same rather gets established once again by another evidence. Assuming Indraprastha was on west of Hastinapur (a la Delhi-Meerut) then Pandavas staying in both forests makes sense since they were close by. However, agyatwas angle is still unexplained. They should have planned to avoid Kauravas by moving farther from Hastinapur but they did reverse…..lust for kingdom…? OR awaiting another exile instead of facing mighty Kuru warriors?…..I am more inclined to go for first reason due to the fact that their emergence from agyatwas remained CONTROVERSIAL….!!!

    But whatever is the case, Gandharavas capturing forest remains assumption only because Gandharava Chitrangadh APPROACHED Kuru Chitrangadh for battle as per the text of MB. There was no Naxalite reason for Kuru king to specially go and oust them. Let us assume that still forest was captured then why only Dwait and not Kamayak which was also near Hastinapur…? Let us further assume that Gandharava fancied Dwait only then why go out to fight in Kurukshetra instead of his advantageous bastion of a forest….??
    Hence it can be concluded RATIONALLY and LOGICALLY that there was NO CAPTURING of forest at all..!!
    =================

    Mr Invincible – Gandharvas can only be vanquished by celestial weapons of superior energy. In the ghosha yatra, it is mentioned that while bhima and twins were killing gandharvas in hundreds, Arjuna alone killed 10 lakh gandharvas. This is possible only by celestial weapons which among humans, only Arjuna knew.

    Sanjay – You got it damn CORRECT, my friend! This is the reason why Karna failed and Arjun succeeded with Gandharavas because Karna never used celestial weapons. In fact Karna made them smell rats with ordinary warfare before leaving the scene thanks to illusion of Chitrasen.

    Like

  29. Regarding Chitrangad vs Gandharva war…..

    As i have explained earlier, the most logical practical explaination is as below:

    Gandharvas had captured the forest of Hastinapur is a fact of MB(just like today’s naxalites who RULE over dense forest of central India), which is clearly proved by the fact from Gandharva war where Gandharvas didnt allow Duryo & co. to enter inside their territory, and kicked the butt of Kurus & captured Duryo…… And still Dhritrashtra/Bhishma could not avenge this act of Gandharvas ……

    Now, when did Gandharvas captured the forest of Hastinapur is not mentioned in Vyas MB….. But it is clear from Chitrangad vs Gandharva war that Gandharvas had captured the forest of Hastinapur during or before the reign of Chitrangad…..

    Hence Chitrangad may have decided to recapture this forest from Gandharvas, hence a full fledged war took place between Chitrangad & Gandharvas (& not a dual fight)…. Now, just like today the Naxalites are ruling the forest of India since some 50-60 years & waging war against indian soldiers every now & then, similarly, Chitrangad would have fought with Gandharva army for some 3 years(on & off) (may be more or less) in the forest fight …. and ultimately Chitrangad would have lost his life in this fight…. 3 year battle on the field of Kurukshetra is not possible….

    And since Gandharvas were good fighters in forest area, hence Bhishma never dared to take the revenge of Chitrangad’s killing or to recapture this forest area…..

    Like

    1. For me, it seems that while Gandharvas have their own heaven(some region in lower Himalayas), they sport in some beautiful places filled with rivers, mountains etc even in the Indian mainland. Indra is regarded as the ultimate king above all Aryan kings. It is with Indra’s permission that these gandharvas regard those territories as their own. Gandharvas explicitly mentioned to Duryo’s messengers that they follow the orders of only Indra. So, they are not obliged to respect the sovereignty of Aryan kings.

      As gandharvas sport in those regions along with their women, they do not tolerate any humans entering there. This attitude of theirs is respected by Aryan kings as it is backed by Indra.

      Chitrangadha violated this rule and entered their territory and hence got involved in a fight.

      Gandharvas can only be vanquished by celestial weapons of superior energy. In the ghosha yatra, it is mentioned that while bhima and twins were killing gandharvas in hundreds, Arjuna alone killed 10 lakh gandharvas. This is possible only by celestial weapons which among humans, only Arjuna knew.

      So, chitrangadha got killed. Should Bhishma avenge this? No for 2 reasons. First it is the kuru prince who violated the rule. So he is at fault. Secondly a war would gandharvas war would mean a war with Indra also which is self destructive.

      And after Yudhi became yuvraj Arjuna vanquished yavanas and others but he also did not consider avenging his ancestor’s death. This further proves that revenge was unnecessary as gandharva was not at fault.

      Like

  30. @ Niraj,

    Your statement-“Basis on dominance over contemporaries Arjuna was a phissadu as you have failed to show him killing his fellow warriors in fair fight”

    My ans- Miyaan, ye mera thekka nahi hai prove karne kaa….. U r the one who is accusing Arjun of killing his fellow warriors in unfair fights, so the onus is on you….. And sicne u have failed to prove your HAWA-MAHAL claim, hence who cares what u say….

    Your statement-“virata yudha dismissed as supernatural.”

    My ans- Punctured Point of NZ player…. Ha…ha…ha….

    Your statement-“He has the unique distinction standing and crying in front of petty bandits.”

    My ans- Prove it or DONT TALK IN AIR……

    Your statement-“Rama was never helpless in front of any opponent.”

    My ans- Point already punctured……

    Your statement-“Vali killing already explained.”

    My ans- Punctured Point ….

    Your statement-“Your Shivaji example doesn’t hold as sword and machine guns are different weapons.”

    My ans- It was a hypothetical example, & very much valid…..

    Your statement-“And one soldier cannot kill 100 soldiers with machine guns without guerilla warfare so all round stupid example.”

    My ans- Why ?? because Stonnne cold Niraj said so ??? Huh……

    Your statement-“Further show from history Shivaji killing 100 foot soldiers like I have shown Daras Singh vs King Kong a documented incident nadal vs feder documented incident. Shivaji needed prepartion against one man Afzal Khan. I am a fan of Shivaji went on the sight.”

    My ans- Arey bhai it was a hypothetical example… And do u mean to say that Shivaji was not capable enough to kill just 100 ORDINARY FOOT SOLDIERS in a war…??

    Your statement-“Ramayana and mb had same astra weapons.”

    My ans- Invalid personal opinion….. The effects of SAME weapon in 2 different eras(Ramayan & MB) shows that the name of the weapons may be same but its powers were different……

    Your statement-“And Rama was never ghuguparas in front of astras like arjuna.”

    My ans- Ha…ha…ha…. What a Bachkaana point….. Ram was cluless in front of Naagpaash of Indrajeet & almost lost his life & lost the battle against Indrajeet….. So let me ask you, what is the definition of “Ghuguprassad” according to you ?? Does it only applies to Arjun ?? Ha…ha…ha…. What a funny debator….!!

    Your statement-“Coming to your steeds point its already punctured. I have grabbed Sanjay not Vyasa and have documented of his biasness with evidenc. He too like Karna and Krishna is part of MB not author of MB and can be challanged.”

    My ans- Point already punctured…… We are not here to listen to your “Niraj-Puraan”…..

    Your statement-“On the Karna Kunti and Bhima triangle lo kallo baat account mein to arjunas pratigya to kill Karna did not prevent bhimas agression as a warrior to launch fierce attacks on Karna why should Karnas pratigya prevent him.”

    My ans- Ha…ha…ha…. Bhai saahab, yahan baat ho rahi hai “attack karne ki” …. “Jaan se marne ki” nahi…… Karna only promised Kunti to not kill BHima, but he never promised that he wont attack or Injure Bhima….. So your EXCUSE of “Kunti’s promise” because of which Karna stopped attacking bhima & backed off from all kinds of fight is proved as pure RUBBISH…..

    So the fact remains that Karna backed off from all kinds of fight with bhima because Karna was scared for his life…..

    And on 14th day, the main motto of Duryo(& his Kamal-vhiew) was to stop Arjun/Bhima/Satyaki from reaching upto Jaydrath, for which Karna was given a job as well, but in the process of saving his own life, Karna FORGOT his main job of Stopping Bhima from reaching upto Jaydrath…..

    Your statement-“Karna abstained from wreslting match Karna was regularly fingering bhima with bow at that time zone hence he was armed at that stage atleast hence he did not give up his armed position.”

    My ans- Karna was armed or unarmed is NON-CONTEXTUAL because the fact is Karna still backed off from all kinds of fight with bhima because he was scared for his life…..

    Your statement-“Virat yudha stays supernatural as limitation of huma faculty support me on this.”

    My ans- Punctured…

    Your statement-“krishna rescuing from Drona Karna naga astra inclusive and chariot exploded proven stands”

    My ans- Punctured arguement…

    Your statement-“naga astra is not supernatural expert charioteer who is more sharp eyed than a nalla warrior can push a chariot down and rescue him.”

    My ans- Supernatual point….

    Your statement-“Krishnas incompentence ws only on 15 -18 day and atleast woke up on 18th night. Arjuna was incompetent through out his entire career in front of bombs”

    My ans- Wow, so you acknowledged the incompentence of Krishna…. Great !! And above point is already proved as IRRELEVANT……

    Your statement-“its astra clash which causes harm in surroundings. Not otherwise.”

    My ans- Pure LIE….. Prove it by actual event or DONT TALK IN AIR….. U r again raising the same old arguement which u lost previously…..

    Fact is that there are many instances where 2 equally powerful astras collided (Brahmastra vs Brahmastra) but still no major harm was done to Surrounding….. E.g. Arjun neutralised Ashwatthama’s Brahmastra on day 19….

    Your statement-“Just astra fired can kill enemy and enemy doesn’t have equal caliber astra then no harm in surroundings.”

    My ans- Punctured point again…… Karna fired Bhargavastra twice & both times it was not nullified, & still it COULD NOT KILL ANY DAMN MAHARATHI…..

    Like

  31. @ Sanjay

    A celestial weapon based war if fought for 3 years will destroy the universe.

    A conventional war lasting for 3 years is unaffordable due to the prohibitively large number of weapons required.

    If you still believe that war as possible, then both of them are of equal prowess as it is mentioned that the gandharva used deceit.

    Like

    1. “And beholding that he could vanquish men, Asuras, and the very gods, his namesake, the powerful king of the Gandharvas, approached him for an encounter. Between that Gandharva and that foremost one of the Kurus, who were both very powerful, there occurred on the field of Kurukshetra a fierce combat which lasted full three years on the banks of the Saraswati. In that terrible encounter characterised by thick showers of weapons and in which the combatants ground each other fiercely, the Gandharva, who had greater prowess or strategic deception, slew the Kuru prince. Having slain Chitrangada–that first of men and oppressor of foes–the Gandharva ascended to heaven.”

      Text does not mention if celestial weapons were used or not. Celestial weapons could be invoked and in a duel target would be opponent and not army. Use at army result in impact on surroundings.

      As per description bow arrows were used as well as wrestling bouts (ground each other) like that one between Karna and Jarasandh. As per norms of those days fight would not have continued after sunset. So everyday battle would have resumed from the scratch in the absence of any decisive result. So three years tenure is possible…

      Having said that there is possibility of ‘years’ being clerical error like so many in KMG. If so then it should have been either 3 days or 3 hours to make it rational for you.

      There was no deceit used by Gandharava.

      Like

      1. What does strategic deception mean?

        Celestial weapons of high energy can affect the surroundings irrespective of the target.

        Like

        1. Yes, you are right….missed that word!

          Celestial weapons were INVOKED by mantras and could be guided as per prescribed target of the invoker. Brahm weapon was fired in Kurukshetra war as well as by Ashwathama aiming at Pandavas (5 persons) alone. So they had ability to be fired at individual or mob, both ways. Karna was killed by Anjalika without harming surroundings.

          Like

          1. Dear friends. its astra clash which causes harm in surroundings. Not otherwise. Just astra fired can kill enemy and enemy doesn’t have equal caliber astra then no harm in surroundings.

            Like

  32. Sachin. Basis on dominance over contemporaries Arjuna was a phissadu as you have failed to show him killing his fellow warriors in fair fight virata yudha dismissed as supernatural. He has the unique distinction standing and crying in front of petty bandits. Rama was never helpless in front of any opponent. Vali killing already explained. My point stands till today nobody know pete sampras was greater or inferior to Rod laver. Great Khali > Dara Singh or not. Your Shivaji example doesn’t hold as sword and machine guns are different weapons. And one soldier cannot kill 100 soldiers with machine guns without guerilla warfare so all round stupid example. Further show from history Shivaji killing 100 foot soldiers like I have shown Daras Singh vs King Kong a documented incident nadal vs feder documented incident. Shivaji needed prepartion against one man Afzal Khan. I am a fan of Shivaji went on the sight. 8 Battles Fought By The Valiant Shivaji Every Patriotic Indian Should Know AboutAisa to koyi haadsa nahee thaa janaab. Ramayana and mb had same astra weapons. And Rama was never ghuguparas in front of astras like arjuna. Coming to your steeds point its already punctured. I have grabbed Sanjay not Vyasa and have documented of his biasness with evidenc. He too like Karna and Krishna is part of MB not author of MB and can be challanged. On the Karna Kunti and Bhima triangle lo kallo baat account mein to arjunas pratigya to kill Karna did not prevent bhimas agression as a warrior to launch fierce attacks on Karna why should Karnas pratigya prevent him. Karna attacked yudhi also with full agression then spared him. Karna ran away on joint attack by bhima – arjuna aur ab yeh jaydrath kahan aagaya beech main. Don’t drift away from topic. Karna vs bhima ki baat chal rahee thee. Karna abstained from wreslting match Karna was regularly fingering bhima with bow at that time zone hence he was armed at that stage atleast hence he did not give up his armed position. Later on joint attack of arjuna karna took place. Virat yudha stays supernatural as limitation of huma faculty support me on this. And -“krishna rescuing from Drona Karna naga astra inclusive and chariot exploded proven stands dude mentioned in KMG naga astra is not supernatural expert charioteer who is more sharp eyed than a nalla warrior can push a chariot down and rescue him. Krishnas incompentence ws only on 15 -18 day and atleast woke up on 18th night. Arjuna was incompetent through out his entire career in front of bombs ha ha ha ha.

    Like

  33. @ Niraj,

    Your statement-“kuch der ke maan bhi lete hain ki virat yudha took place. Arjuna much superior to his opponents and inclusive of supernatural how are we to know that Valis caliber was equal to the opponents faced by Arjuna. These warriors existed in different time zones. Arjuna > Rama is only proven if Vali equal to opponents faced by arjuna .”

    My ans- Utter rubbish logic….. A warrior’s caliber is measured by his performance against his fellow opponents of that SAME TIME ZONE….. e.g. If Shivaji alone could kill 100 foot soldiers with his sword… and today if one military soldier(with a machine gun) can kill 1000’s of same foot soldiers(possessing swords)(of Shivaji’s time), then does it make that military soldier greater fighter than Shivaji ??? Certainly not…. Although if today, that military soldier(with a machine gun) can single handedly kill 100 of other modern military soldiers(with machine guns), then surely this military soldier can be compared with Shivaji… Although this is just an example point of comparison, because the over life long results are to be compared, when we compare two warriors of two eras…….

    Also, the dominace of the warrior over his fellow opponents of that SAME TIME ZONE is also an important point of comparision……

    Arjun had the most decorated career victories & his DOMINANCE over his contemporary opponent warriors was EXCEPTIONAL(Viraat war, 14th day war etc)…. while Ram had no such exceptional career record & his cowardly killing of Baali, & defeats at the hand of Indrajeet, clearly shows that he had no such dominance over his contemporary opponent warriors….. Hence Arjun was better than Ram….

    Your statement-“Statement state borne away by steed. Karna never forsaked battle as proven by me so stop crying as you are caught in your own trap.”

    My ans- Pure LIE & Personal opinion…. hence itself punctured…. grabbing the throat of Sanjay & Vyas wont change the fact Niraj ji…..

    Your statement-“He did not attack or was not attacking with bow and arrow in accordance with vow to kunti so he already was in stop battle mode.”

    My ans- Ha…ha…ha…. Lo kallo baat…… Karna did not remember his “vow to kunti” when he was attacking an unarmed Bhima who was trying to hide behing dead elephants, but Karna suddenly remembered his “vow to kunti” when Bhima decided to kill Karna & hence Karna ran away….. And in the process Karna FORGOT his main job of Stopping Bhima from reaching upto Jaydrath…… Ha…ha…ha…. This is hilarious……. DONT TALK IN AIR NIRAJ ji…..

    Fact remains that Karna was scared for his life(when Bhima challenged for wrestling), hence he stopped attacking bhima & backed off from all kinds of fight with an UNARMED bhima …..

    Your statement-“Virat yudha being supernatural as human limitations proove my point”

    My ans- Punctured arguement of NZ player…..

    Your statement-“krishna rescuing from Drona Karna naga astra inclusive and chariot exploded proven. If not for Krishna arjuna death would have happened as he also would have exloded like the tank stand and naga astra was day 18.”

    My ans- Pure LIE…..

    Your statement-“NO refutation Karna killed fairly so case rests.”

    My ans- Ha…ha…ha…. .. NO proof of Karna killed unfairly, so point punctured….

    Your statement-“A delay-action bomb is an aerial bomb designed to explode some time after impact given from Wikipedia has proven arjuna infeffective and a ghughuprasad and naga astra was not even a delayed action bomb ha ha ha ha End result says Krishna saved arjuna worhtless hide during the war nagastra and after the war as well.”

    My ans- Meaningless point…. And it only shows the incompetence of Krishna, because he ALSO failed to see the impending Bombs from Day 15 to day 18 & saw them on the night of day 18…!!”
    Nagastra is a Supernatural point….

    Like

  34. Mr. Invincible kuch der ke maan bhi lete hain ki virat yudha took place. Arjuna much superior to his opponents and inclusive of supernatural how are we to know that Valis caliber was equal to the opponents faced by Arjuna. These warriors existed in different time zones. Arjuna > Rama is only proven if Vali equal to opponents faced by arjuna .in fake virat yudha. Yes Don Bradmans batting average is more than Sachin Tendulkar but how do you know Harold Larwood and Bill Voce were superior to Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis or Bret Lee or Glen Mcgrath. Or for that matter if we compare Martin Crowe vs Virat Kohli how do we know bowlers which kohli faces were superior to what crowe faced andy Roberts marshall etc. . We don’t know for sure the opponents great khali faced were superior to kingkong faced by Dara Singh. Nadal defeat federer in 2 hours. Mcenroe defeats Jimmy Connors in around 45 minutes Mcenroe > Nadal is stupid. We don’t know Connors was equal to or greater than Federer. See the double standards of Sachin here

    Like

    1. I never claimed Arjuna greater than Rama. If the way Rama killed Vali is objectionable, the way Arjuna caused Bhurisravas death is equally objectionable. Both were attacked from behind, both were not given any warning.

      From my side, there is no double standard.

      Like

        1. I gave my opinion on killing of Bhishma, Drona, Karna etc in the past. My view is that Arjuna had to do so under pressure from Yudhi and Krishna. Not that these 2 are cowards, but each warrior has his own way of looking at the situation.

          Virat war and kuruksetra are 2 different battles for many reasons. First in virat war, Arjuna did not have order from yudhi to kill kauravas. Similarly Bhishma etc did not have dhritarastra’s order to kill Arjuna. So the overall aggression is minute. Second, in virat war, it was home land for Arjuna and foreign land for kauravas. But kuruksetra was opposite as the battle took place in hastinapur. Third, the speed of discharge of arrows of all top maharathis was very great. So, a warrior needs lot of arrows to fight continuously for even a few hours. In karna parva, Karna wanted 20 lakh arrows to be placed in his chariot for a single day fight. This is not a problem for Arjuna as he had inexhaustible quivers but Bhishma and others have to ensure that they have continuous supply of arrows before they can take Arjuna head on. This is possible at kuruksetra but not in virat. Hence they played safe by not enraging Arjuna and gave importance to protecting Duryo’s life.

          Yudhi was naturally peace loving and reduced his demand to 5 villages but could not avoid war. Yudhi knew that top kaurava warriors cannot be defeated by other pandavas. So, he rested his hopes on Arjuna and was expecting a virat war kind of clean sweep.

          Will continue later

          Like

            1. So, as you remember, I don’t have to elaborate. When Karna asked Arjuna to give some time, Arjuna immediately consented. Hence if people say Karna was killed unfairly, I agree but if people say Arjuna killed Karna unfairly, I don’t agree.

              Like

  35. Both Karna and his charioteer were hit. Sanjay being anti karna did the same bias which he did in bhima and karna chariot jump karna defeated and bhima chariot jump roaring lion. Here Karna distressed and his charioteer who also hit was getting tickled with bhimas arrows jabke Karna had European armor facility ha ha ha . My refutation is in complete tune with Sachin. See the event your self Then Bhima pierced the Suta’s
    son in return with THREE shafts endued with the impetuosity of Garuda
    and he pierced the latter’s charioteer also with seven. Then, O king,
    Karna thus afflicted by Bhima’s might, became exceedingly distressed
    Karna pierced only with three and charioteer with seven arrows. For some karna haters who are as poor in maths as well as English 7 > 3. Distress is state of mind. Both warrior and charioteer injured hit by arrows who was distressed Sanjays opinion is as good as ours. His chariot jump vanquished and roaring lion opinion ka to popat ho chukka. Chariot was borne away by STEEDS is a fact. No two opinions about it. And Karna never forsake battle also steeds borne him away ke baad he is continuing fighting. Beholding thy sons advancing against Bhimasena, Radha’s son, KARNA RUSHED AGAINST THAT MIGHTY WARRIOR, SHOOTING ARROWS OF KEEN POINTS THAT WERE EQUIPPED WITH GOLDEN WINGS AND WHETTED ON STONE. BHIMA, HOWEVER, QUICKLY RUSHED AGAINST KARNA, Point against Karna well punctured. STEEDs are in control of charioteer not the warrior. and warrior was continuing battle in a jiffy after the steeds incident took place.

    Like

  36. Sachin my satetment stand ie as follows stop blabering your worhtless nonssense before preaching others. I have torn apart your steed example word by word bit by bit.” Statement state borne away by steed. Karna never forsaked battle as proven by me so stop crying as you are caught in your own trap. Karna distressed is also rubbish sanjay being biased. I have quoted charioteer also hit unless bhimas arrows were so halka phulka ki charioteer ki gudgudee hui thee ha ha ha ha. Its steeds who borne away Karna ko reltated statement still distressed is only written.
    Sachin ans- Ha…ha…ha…. Atleast you accepted that Karna Ran away doom dabaa ke in the end….
    Abstain does not mena dum dabake. Is your english as bad as angoori bhabhi ??????
    He did not attack or was not attacking with bow and arrow in accordance with vow to kunti so he already was in stop battle mode. The funny part is, here Sachin is not at all seeing “what actually happened” here, but he is only listening to what Sanjay is describing….!! That too his own liking. Hippocratism at its best….!! Ha…ha…ha…. Who is lying now..?? So the fact remains that Karna never backed off from all kinds of fight with an UNARMED bhima ….. Virat yudha being supernatural as human limitations proove my point. -“krishna rescuing from Drona Karna naga astra inclusive and chariot exploded proven. If not for Krishna arjuna death would have happened as he also would have exloded like the tank stand and naga astra was day 18. NO refutation Karna killed fairly so case rests. A delay-action bomb is an aerial bomb designed to explode some time after impact given from Wikipedia has proven arjuna infeffective and a ghughuprasad and naga astra was not even a delayed action bomb ha ha ha ha End result says Krishna saved arjuna worhtless hide during the war nagastra and after the war as well. On Divyastra new zealand new zealnd ke atirikt you don’t have much to offer Europeon armour ka to popat ho gaya

    Like

  37. @ Niraj,

    Your statement-“stop blabering your worhtless nonssense before preaching others. I have torn apart your steed example word by word bit by bit.”

    My ans- Pure LIE….

    “Then, O king, Karna thus afflicted by Bhima’s might, became exceedingly distressed. And THAT ILLUSTRIOUS WARRIOR THEN FLED, FORSAKING THE BATTLE, BORNEAWAY BY HIS FLEET STEEDS.”
    —————–

    Nowhere in these lines it is mentioned that “STEEDS WENT OUT OF CONTROL”… ONly thing which is mentioned is that Karna became “exceedingly distressed” because of Bhimas’ attack & he himself LEFT THE ACTIVE BATTLE & Ran away ON HIS FLEET STEEDS”… & this is “what actually happened”…..
    So stop blabbering your non-sense PERSONAL OPINION Niraj ji…. Karna’s defeat stands as ever..

    Your statement-“Understanding the motives of Bhima, Kama, that foremost of intelli- gent men, abstained from that combat in the very sight of all the bow- men ABSTAIN FROM ATHELETIC ENCOUNTER then Kama, O king, reproved him in such boastful language in the sight of that lion among the Vrishnis (viz., Krishna) and of the high-souled Partha. Then the ape- bannered (Arjuna), urged by Kesava, shot at the Sutas son
    After that running away took place. Ha ha ha so stop lying”

    My ans- Ha…ha…ha…. Atleast you accepted that Karna Ran away doom dabaa ke in the end….

    But Bhai saahab, after Bhima challenged Karna for wrestling battle, there is no mention of Karna attacking Bhima with Bow/arrow or sword/spear either… so my point is proved that “Karna abstained from all kinds of fight with bhima.” & RAN AWAY in the end doom dabaa ke…. so this proves another defeat of Karna…..

    The funny part is, here Niraj is not at all seeing “what actually happened” here, but he is only listening to what Sanjay is describing….!! Hippocratism at its best….!! Ha…ha…ha…. Who is lying now..??

    So the fact remains that ARMED Karna backed off from all kinds of fight with an UNARMED bhima …..

    Your statement-“you care that’s why you keep bringing this point up”

    My ans- Ha…ha…ha…. Nope, its u who keep blabbering your personal opinion that “Viraat war is supernatural” without proving it since many years…… I only enjoy the fun in asking u the proof of it…..

    Your statement-“krishna rescuing from Drona Karna naga astra inclusive and chariot exploded proven. If not for Krishna arjuna death would have happened as he also would have exloded like the tank”

    My ans- Irrelevant point….. Proves nothing….. Although it only proves the incompetence of Krishna, because he ALSO failed to see the impending Bombs from Day 15 to day 18 & saw them on the night of day 18…!!

    Your statement-“You have claimed Karna was killed fairly you proove.”

    My ans- Ha…ha…ha…. Kyu bhai mera thekka hai kya…. It was you who claimed that “Karna was killed unfairly”, so the onus is on u to prove your claim…… I only said that Arjun killed Karna, which is a fact of MB…..

    Your statement-“it prooves arjuna inferior to stand up to time bombs fired by kuru greats karna drona”

    My ans- Nope, it only proves that the bombs(Celestial weapons) of karna/drona were capable enough to kill Arjun DURING the MB war….. because Krishna also did nothing to stop those bombs DURING the MB war (As you claim)…….

    Your statement-“I don’t have such a serious issue with that because like you I am adopting end resut is what matters. End result Krishna saves Arjuna from Karna Drona combo.”

    My ans- Exactly, End result says Krishna COULD NOT save Arjuna from Day 15 to day 18 DURING the MB war…… What happened AFTER the war is NON-Contextual, because till then Arjun had won the war & killed Karna…..

    Your statement-“You have solved Sachins stupid challenge divyastras were inferior to arrows since non of them except shakti killed a maharathi.”

    My ans- Poor NZ player, still jumping in joy even after losing the world cup….. Ha…ha…ha…. Niraj, u have already lost this debate previously…. And my point was relating the effectiveness of Celestial weapons vs Normal arrow in KILLING MAHARATHIS DURING MB PERIOD…… And facts speaks for themselves, that Normal arrows/swords/mace etc were more effective in KILLING MAHARATHIS DURING MB PERIOD than Celestial weapons…..

    Like

  38. Regarding Sugrive blocking Bali inside the cave while fighting with mayavi….

    It was a simple CHEATING & BACKSTABBING of Bali by his younger brother-Sugrive in order to get the throne of bali…..

    But since sugrive later helped the LORD Ram in his conquest of Raavan, hence this BACKSTABBING act of Sugrive was justified by the rubbish EXCUSE of “Sugrive thinking that Bali might have been dead inside the cave”….. What a cheat of a brother Sugrive was…..!!

    Still, Bali was kind enough to not kill Sugrive after this BACKSTABBING, but he only threw him out of his kingdom……

    Like

    1. I also believe Sugriva was a cheater. Angada was a grown up boy by the time this incident happened. Hence if Sugriva was innocent, he should have placed Angada on the throne. But he took the kingdom and Vali’s wife also and was enjoying the royal pleasures. Anyone in Vali’s place would have done the same.

      Infact Sugriva even forgot Rama’s work. Lakshmana had to give warning .

      Like

  39. Regarding Ram killing Bali…

    Simple Practical logic says that Ram was not competent enough to kill Bali in a full fledged head on war, hence he chose to kill Bali from behind while engaging him with Sugreev….

    And to defend LORD Ram’s action, the boon of Bali (to acquire half the strength of the opponent while fighting with him) was ADDED later…..

    Niraj’s logic of “time-saving” is absolutely rubbish, because it only proves the low warrior capabiltied of Ram…. just compare him with the Greatest-Arjun who brought the whole Kuru army under his mercy in few hours at Viraat war…. but Ram(with the support of Laxman+Hanuman+Sugreev) could not dare to fight Bali in a head on war……

    Like

    1. Sachin for a person who always blabbered the high profile bakwaas killer > killed that was a nice palti. time factor existed in vali killing sita was kidnapped. every day precious. What you said about Rama was more applicable to bhima arjuna.

      Like

  40. Dear Niraj,

    Every warrior is vulnerable to sharp weapons in the absence of defense. If Rama’s arrow can kill vali, there is no reason why Rama had to worry about losing time. Rama’s arrow can kill vali only when there is no defense from vali. This can’t be called being effective. Ashwathama could never kill Dhristadyumna in the battlefield. Bye he could do so with ease when the latter was half asleep.

    We do not know the extent of the dark cave. If it was small, Sugriva would have been able to see what was happening. It could have been some chase some fight some chase etc. My point is mayavi was not so strong that he can fight with vali for 1 complete year.

    Even if bhima jarasandha battle proves bhima superior, it also proves that the difference between them is very small unlike the difference between bhima and any of hidimba, kichika etc.

    The treaty part is not mentioned in kishkindha kanda but it is mentioned in uttara kanda of valmiki Ramayana.

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    1. I have already admitted your point on vali in one of my previous posts below are passages Believing that he stayed at the entrance of the cavity I entered that impenetrable cavity, and Then In Searching For That Demon There One Year Elapsed. I have seen that terrified enemy of mine effortlessly, and I killed him immediately along with all of his relatives

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  41. Mr. Invincible your statement “Regarding celestial weapons, yes they are more powerful than ordinary weapons. I have brahmastra and a sword. My enemy has only brahmastra. I can defeat him only with my sword and not brahmastra because he knows how to counter it”

    My ans- Excellent Mr. Invincible excellent. I was always correct in analyzing your superior intelligence and knew that despite being a pandava supporter you were actually a blessing in disguise for Karna supporters like me and Sanjay. You have solved Sachins stupid challenge divyastras were inferior to arrows since non of them except shakti killed a maharathi. Every warrior had brahama astra drishtadyuma aswhattama etc like arjuna and karna. Hence astras countered and ordinary arrows – sword used. Sachin had come up with a European amour theory to support his stupid logic.

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    1. Yes, if one warrior has celestial weapon and the other warrior does not, first warrior wins, proof Bhishma Sweta battle. As long as Bhishma was using normal arrows, Sweta was dominating their battle, but when Bhishma used Brahma weapon, Sweta could not answer it with any of his ordinary(read conventional) weapons. Thus he had to die

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  42. Mr. Invincible your point on Vali is well made from valmiki ramayana “Believing that he stayed at the entrance of the cavity I entered that impenetrable cavity, and Then In Searching For That Demon There One Year Elapsed. I have seen that terrified enemy of mine effortlessly, and I killed him immediately along with all of his relatives.” See I gave passage proving you right. I am Niraj NOT Sachin. that’s what ethical debating is all about.

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  43. @ Niraj
    Battles between 2 warriors last for a long time only if the 2 are equally matched. Jarasandha was Bhima’s match and hence he could fight for 15 days. But no one else from hidimba to vaka, kirmira, jatasura, jimuta, kichika, dussasana could withstand Bhima for more than a few hours. Similarly Bhishma-parashurama battle lasted for many days because each was the other’s match. Bhishma could vanquish shalva and other kings at kashi swayamwar in a few hours. Parashurama also decimated many kshatriyas in a matter of minutes.

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    1. Dear Mr. Invincible Bhima in the end did tear jarasandha apart and vali did prevail over the asura in the cave. Both in the end proving their superiority over their opponents. Point on bheeshma vs parshurama well made.

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    2. When mayavi ran into the cave vali entered into the cave asking Sugriva to stay outside. The cave was very dark and while mayavi knew the cave well, vali did not. So, it took a lot of time for vali to chase mayavi. The actual fight might have taken only the last few weeks. Mayavi’s own brother dhundhubhi who was even stronger succumbed to vali in a few minutes.

      So, battles between unequal warriors never lasted more than a few hours. Even those between perfect equals lasted maximum a month.

      If Rama was considering time, he was thinking vali as his match.

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      1. Regarding vali’s ethics, vali did not asurp sugriva’s kingdom. He took his own kingdom which was misappropriated by Sugriva. First Sugriva had no reason to believe vali’s death. Even if he had, he should have launched a military attack on mayavi. Even if he did not do this, he should have installed Angada on the throne. Then vali would have trusted his innocence. But not only did Sugriva coronate himself but also appropriated Taara. Vali appropriating Ruma is not wrong as he did so after vanquishing Sugriva. Once Sugriva Is vanquished, all his property, wife included automatically belongs to vali. But Sugriva possesses Tara without vanquishing vali. Hence it is akin to theft.

        Rama saw fault in Vali and Ravana but not in Sugriva??

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        1. Vali did not conquer Lanka because after defeating Ravana both of them signed a treaty. According to this treaty, all wealth of Ravana is also vali’s wealth and all wealth of vali is also ravan’s. This treaty was in vali’s favor as his wealth was not a patch of that of Ravana. But it was not favourable to Ravana because he was sharing his huge wealth with vali and getting in return only vali’s inferior wealth.

          So, it is Ravana who should attack kishkindha to cancel the treaty but he did not. Even if Ravana has obtained his weapons after his fight with vali, he could have attacked kishkindha after getting them.

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          1. Regarding celestial weapons, yes they are more powerful than ordinary weapons. I have brahmastra and a sword. My enemy has only brahmastra. I can defeat him only with my sword and not brahmastra because he knows how to counter it. I have only brahmastra and my enemy has a thousand swords. I can still defeat him easily this proves superiority of celestial weapons.

            Vali kumbhakarna comparison unfair as the latter knew he was being shot, vali did not.

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      2. Dear Mr. Invincible. Agreeing with your dark cave theory. Asura + dark cave advantage makes asura greater than what he actually was still inferior to Vali ( as he got killed ) and capable of carrying battle for many days. Can you proove from Valmiki Ramayana passages vali was chasing maya. Surely a chase cannot be for so many days in a ltd space area.

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      3. Gandharava Chitragandh and Kuru Chitragandh battle lasted for 3 years. Gandharava, a celestial entity, could kill Kuru human after 3 years….who was more powerful?

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        1. In my personal opinion, if a war between 2 warriors concludes decisively on the same day, then only we can say the winner is superior to the loser. All multiple day battles are examples of warriors of equal(or comparible) prowess irrespective of the outcome.

          Battle lasting for 3 years is irrational.

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  44. Sachin ans- Ha…ha…ha…. Very funny….. Niraj, day by day your logic of arguement is getting more & more funny & superficial….. U keep blabbering “my so-called pravachan” of “what actually happened”, “what actually happened”…. BUT u NEVER accepts “what actually happened in MB” & instead keeps blabbering your personal opinion….. Fact of the matter is & what actually happened is Karna ran away in his (Intact) car LEAVING THE ACTIVE BATTLE (no role of charioteer here) (Karna defeated in this round) & then Karna came back for 2nd round of fight….. Both the ACTUAL EVENT & Sanjay’s description proves this point….. So stop blabbering your FAKE & baseless sant-vaani of “what actually happened”….. This is hippocracy at its best……!!
    Sachin stop blabering your worhtless nonssense before preaching others. I have torn apart your steed example word by word bit by bit. Hence in your above post you didn’t dare to requote it. Sly and smart. Karna was never defeated by bhima proven in accordance with your santvaani this forsaking battle vanquished all ornamental language.
    This quote of yours My ans- Here is what happened AFTER Bhima challenged Karna for wrestling battle:
    “Hearing those harsh words of Kama, Bhimasena laughed aloud and addressing Kama said unto him these words in the hearing of all, ‘O wicked wight, repeatedly hast thou been vanquished by me. How canst thou indulge, then, in such idle boast ? In this world the ancients witnessed the victory and defeat of the great Indra himself. O thou of ignoble parentage, engage thyself with me in an athletic encounter with bare arms. Even as I slew the mighty Kichaka of gigantic frame, I would then slay thee in the very sight of all kings.’ Understanding the motives of Bhima, Kama, that foremost of intelli- gent men, abstained from that combat in the very sight of all the bow- men. Indeed, having made Bhima earless, Kama, O king, reproved him in such boastful language in the sight of that lion among the Vrishnis (viz., Krishna) and of the high-souled Partha. Then the ape- bannered (Arjuna), urged by Kesava, shot at the Sutas son, O king, many shafts whetted on stone. Those arrows adorned with gold, shot by Partha’s arms and issuing out of Gandiva, entered Kama’s body, like cranes into the Krauncha mountains. With those arrows shot from Gandiva, which entered Kama’s body like so many snakes, Dhananjaya drove the Sutas son from Bhimasena’s vicinity. His bow cut off by Bhima, and himself afflicted with the arrows of Dhananjaya, Karna quickly fled away from Bhima on his great car.”
    ———————————
    So it is clear that Karna not only abstained fro wrestling fight BUT he also abstained from all kinds of fight with bhima & RAN AWAY in the end, hence DEFEAT for Karna……
    My ans Ha ha ha in janaab ne apne hi pair par kulhadi maar di. O thou of ignoble parentage, engage thyself with me in an athletic encounter with bare arms. Even as I slew the mighty Kichaka of gigantic frame, I would then slay thee in the very sight of all kings.’ Understanding the motives of Bhima, Kama, that foremost of intelli- gent men, abstained from that combat in the very sight of all the bow- men
    ABSTAIN FROM ATHELETIC ENCOUNTER then
    Kama, O king, reproved him in such boastful language in the sight of that lion among the Vrishnis (viz., Krishna) and of the high-souled Partha. Then the ape- bannered (Arjuna), urged by Kesava, shot at the Sutas son
    After that running away took place. Ha ha ha so stop lying

    Your statement-“limitations in human faculty support my opinion so it stand pal.”
    My ans- Ha…ha…ha…. limitations in human faculty is your personal logic attaching it to Viraat war & since u failed to prove your point (since many years), hence its a lost debate for you….. Who cares……
    My ans you care that’s why you keep bringing this point up
    Sachin My ans- Firstly, u failed to prove your “ghughuprasad” point of yours, because none of the warriors, who used super weapons against Arjun, could defeat or kill Arjun in the war…..
    Secondly, gaining temporary advantage during a battle(because of celestial weapons use) does not make the attacker(Karna) any great or the defender(Arjun) any inferior…. what matters is the end result……

    My ans krishna rescuing from Drona Karna naga astra inclusive and chariot exploded proven. If not for Krishna arjuna death would have happened as he also would have exloded like the tank
    Sachin ans- Why ??? Arjuna killed Karna is a fact of MB….. whether he killed him fairly or unfairly is the claim of you Karna lovers, hence its your job to prove your point, otherwise DONT RAISE this fair/unfair point…..
    My ans You have claimed Karna was killed fairly you proove.
    Sachin ans- Point already proven IRRELEVANT, because Shalya parva section 62 neither proves Krishna as great or Arjun as inferior……
    My ans it prooves arjuna inferior to stand up to time bombs fired by kuru greats karna drona
    BTW Niraj, u didnt respond to my point: “it only shows the incompetence of Krishna, because he ALSO failed to see the impending Bombs from Day 15 to day 18 & saw them on the night of day 18…!!” Do u agree with this observation ??
    My ans. I don’t have such a serious issue with that because like you I am adopting end resut is what matters. End result Krishna saves Arjuna from Karna Drona combo.

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